Bijou Drains
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I wonder what his view is about Pictish imperialism’s conquest of the kingdom of Dal Riada and The Kingdom of Alba’s imperialistic conquest of the Brythonic Kingdom of Strathclyde and the later Alba/Scottish conquest of the Lordship of Galloway.
Would his view of Imperialism would have been different if the Scottish colony of Darien had been a success instead of a disaster.
Perhaps as a native Northumbrian, I should “never feel really free” while Scottish Occupied Northumbria (the Lothians) is still part of an Imperialist Scotland!
Pieter’s contribution is, as I would have imagined, thorough, well written and compelling. I would, however, add that the causation and development of anti social personality disorder, child abuse, domestic abuse, controlling and coercive behaviour, etc. has more complex explanations than mere poverty or poor conditions.
Although the stresses of the current economic system have their part to play, abuse, coercive control and domestic violence are no respecters of economic class. Familial patterns of poor parenting and attachment difficulties have long roots. Reducing the impact of this by the liberation of people from the capitalist system will have an impact on this, but many, many years of hard work and generations of support will be required to overcome the impact of this.
As a result of this in the immediate post revolutionary period agencies such as Child Protection Services, Adult Safeguarding Services, psychiatric services, welfare systems, family support and family dispute mediation and oversight will still be required. As such it will be necessary to have a rule based system, that is competently run and which is resourced effectively, all based on truly democratic system.
A recognition of this by the Party would go along way of overcoming the doubts that sympathetic others have expressed about the Socialist case.
I have been a member of several trades unions most of which have policies that I would not fully support.
Surely our policy is to join the union that is best likely to support our working “rights”, support other members of the working class in their on going struggles and which increases our pay.
If the IWW is likely to do that then we should be members, personally I have found the more traditional unions have been more able to take on that role, but if the IWW could do that more effectively, I would join.
My mother told me that she worked out that she didn’t pay tax by the time she started work at 15, she didn’t join the party until she was in her 60s.
Prior to joining the party, when she was in the Labour Party and I was in the Socialist Party, it was an area of agreement between us. I think it might of been something he had learned from her grandfather (they talked a lot about politics). I didn’t know him but he was an early member of the ILP and possibly of the SDF, so if it was a common view in the early 20th Century, it woudl seem a sensible link.
“I recall talking with a younger co-worker about that period of time, He had been fed the myth of the Winter of Discontent and Union Wreckers of the Economy. Kept bringing up the rates of inflation. He was silenced when another older colleague told him how inflation didn’t really harm us back then because it was compensated by high and frequent pay rises. And a good reason why a strong union is always needed.”
I had a similar conversation in my pre SPGB days when a fellow worker explained to me in words to the effect that “if rises in prices occur, that isn’t a problem for workers, wages are a price, we will just need to put the price of labour up like very other seller of a commodity”.
I also agree with ALB, the current crop of “economics” reporters struggle to distinguish between inflation (a fall in the value of money) and the action of the market to put up prices due to commodity shortages. If strawberries become expensive because of a bad harvest or lack of labour to harvest the fruit that is not inflation, the higher prices will balance the number of strawberries bought with the number of strawberries available, this is not a general fall in the value of money.
The term red fascist reminds me of a heated debate I had with an SWPer in a boozer in Newcastle back in the 1980s. The SWPer spouted some defence of actions by Trotsky during the Kronstadt rebellion, stating that the rebels were traitors and saboteurs. I responded to him by saying that he was behaving like a red fascist. His response was to threaten to glass me. He obviously missed the heavy irony in his response.
Fortunately he was a spotty, seven stone, student and a quick explanation that he was likely to receive a byker teacake if he persisted with that line of reasoning was enough to calm his ire.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Byker%20TeacakeHe’s probably a management consultant or a junior Foreign Office Minister by now
Alan Johnson – “ It reminds me of an early argument that the late comrades Pieter Lawrence and Frank Simpkins presented about the continuation of law and law enforcement.
Is Broadstairs and Carstairs, the State’s secure hospitals for the criminally insane the best treatment, BD? Even within every “normal” psychiatric hospital they have “locked” wards for those who exist as a threat to themselves and others.
For the “typhoid marys”, it meant incarceration under unpleasant conditions.”
To be fair, Typhoid Mary didn’t face an incarceration in unpleasant conditions, she had a cottage to line in, helped out in the labs and was allowed to have supervised trips out away from her place of quarantine.
It is also untrue to state that every normal psychiatric hospital have locked wards, I would guess it is much less than 20% and that lots of general hospitals with have additional psychiatric hospitals. Your view of psychiatric hospitals and current care regimes seem to be close to those of the 1970s than what occurs now.
Saying that some degree of enforced support for people with certain types of difficulties does not mean the use of places like Broadmoor or Carstairs. My experience of working within and supporting secure and semi secure hospitals is one of care, support, empathy and consideration. I have also been involved in the process of setting orders for people to be placed in compulsory placement (sectioning) and have regularly written reports for Mental Health Tribunals, where individuals have requested that their compulsory placement be revoked. Again my experience has been of compassionate, knowledgeable and caring professionals who make considered reflections on the risks, the evidence and the individual to try and make the best possible decision.
Although there seems to be a section of party members that deny the possibility of any form of compulsion within a Socialist society, the reality is that severe mental ill health is a day to day lived experience of many people. Whilst I accept that many of these issues may have their genesis in current society, not all issues arise from this. Trauma for instance will not be eradicated by Socialism, family relationship difficulties will not suddenly be resolved, issues of abuse and control will not disappear. Many of the people I have worked with have suffered head injuries or had learning disabilities; all of these situations will continue to occur in a socialist society. It follows that there will still need to be procedures where some degree of enforced care will be required.
Going back to the case put forward by Pieter Lawrence and others very skillfully and thoughtfully put together, I remember Pieter putting the point very poignantly that he would much rather that the care of his mental health was discussed and decided upon by qualified, caring, knowleable professionals than to have those decisions being made by the village moot or the local tennis club.
Taking Pieter and Frank’s points further, one of the key differences between the Socialist case as presented by the SPGB and the case presented by the anarchists and the Leninists, is that our case is that by taking control of the state we can remove the class and economic nature of the state and transform state from the agent of class oppression into the apparatus for the administration of things.
There is a danger that we focus entirely on the class nature of law and the criminal element of property ownership. Including in the development of Law there are a miriad of guidance, regulation, statutory support, all of which can be easily adapted to the administraation of things.
Using the example of mental health The Mental Health Act 1983 and subsequent amending acts and guidance would provide a valuable framework for a Society, if the administration of the Act was to be freed by the hidious resource based restrictions placed on current practice.
To all those who state that all forms and edifices of Law will be erased and overthrown by a Socialist revolution, I ask would this include, electrical regulations, COSSH regulations, Display Screen regulations, current guidance and practice re surgery and medical procedures, qualification structures for airline pilots, building regulations, speed limits on roads, management of waterways and pollution controls, clean air regulations, etc. etc. etc.
All of these areas of regulation have been built up through the practice and expertise of many areas of workers skilled labour. Freed from the market and the resource constraints of the profit system, these pieces of regulation, etc. can be democratically improved and developed, however some degree of regulation will be necessary in many areas, within the SPGB we have our existing rules and areas of administration, these operate democratically and do not automatically arrive at by consensus, it is unfeasible that this would not be the case in a Socialist Society.
Some members imply that in the advent of socialism there will be an outbreak of complete reasonableness, in such a set of circumstances there would be no reason for any sort of compulsion or sanction. I would ask members not to examine the fact that there are somewhere between 100-200,000 scientologists or that Donald Trump gained over 74,000,000 votes, or that I heard Brentford fans sing the line “We’re by far the greatest supporters, the world has ever seen. I would ask them to think about the way that on occasions members of the party (me included) have acted and behaved unreasonably, to show that we will not reach a society where all members are always, sane, reasonable, considered and democratic, following a Socialist revolution. More reasonable, more considered, more sane, undoubtedly, but completely rational, not a chance.
Whilst I agree with you that there would be no jails in a Socialist Society, I do think there would be processes to protect the public and the individuals. For example it might be necessary to protect society from an individual such as Typhoid Mary, if such a person presented in a Socialist Society, and whilst the prevalence of mental health issues would likely be far less in a Socialist Society, I am fairly sure that issues such as Paranoid Schizophrenia would still occur and there might be instances where some degree of protection for people and for others might need to exist.
I also think that even within a capitalist framework it would be very difficult to vaccinate people against their will, however within a Socialist world I also think practices such as vaccine passports to gain admission to public gatherings might be necessary if a similar pandemic occurred.
One of the issues of mislabeling any right wing approach as fascism is the boy who cried wolf approach. If we label, for example the current Tory government, as fascist some may then assume that any group that are labelled fascist are not really fascist, or perhaps more worryingly, may feel that being governed by the Tories has not been too bad, therefore Fascism is ok and that voting for those who are labelled fascist is going to be equally benevolent.
I agree Alan, however, the use of a z in words like organize is absolutely hideous and that we can make more use of more current usage to describe ourselves.
“They were letting down tyres of SUVs in Glasgows West End arguing this was a ‘posh’ bit of Glasgow. It is not necessarily so.
One motorist was chemist needing to travel to Ayrshire I think.”Another example of the environmental movement, missing the true cause of the environmental and instead attacking other workers.
It seems to be that you can tell people any far fetched claptrap and they will believe it (with the obvious exception of telling them that it would be possible to use the resources of the planet in an efficient, democratic, sustainable way, where all have access to meet their needs and avoid starvation, war, uncertainty, general unhappiness, etc.)
They’re right he is coming back. He’s organised a big come back party. He’s invited Elvis, Robin Hood, L Ron Hubbard, Jim Morrison, Amelia Earhart, Tupac, King Arthur, Adolph Hitler and Jesus. Going to be one hell of a party! (not).
I know for some members of the SPGB that it’s frowned upon to be too critical of non Socialists, but I hope we can all agree that these clowns are a bunch of fuck wits.
Although you characterise the CWO and it’s various sister organisations as somehow “post Leninist”, Alan, and that their Leninism is a historic quirk,I fear you are being far too kind to them.
As one simple example demonstrated in the article you quote, they follow the same failed, patronising, elitist strategy that the Leninists follow ad nausium, i.e. campaigning for something that cannot be achieved, in order to demonstrate to the working class that it cannot be achieved. I quote – “We argue that a fight for basic living conditions, which capitalism cannot grant, will be the basis on which the consciousness of the need to overthrow the system”
Another example of their elitist attitude is taken form the ICT platform 2020
“It is the task of the proletarian political organisation to return to the working class the lessons of its own historical experience, organising the better elements produced by the class and leading the working class struggle towards an internationalist revolutionary solution”
A further examination of their internal organisational history shows they have conspiratorial and democratic centralist roots that are deeply embedded. There is no transparent, accountable open and democratic processes similar to our internal democracy.
Their objective of a classless, moneyless society,based on common ownership may be one we share (alongside Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, et al), but the means are as important as the objective. Sadly we differ from them in this way in many significant ways.
The Leninism and elitism they show, is not a historic quirk, it is deep within their organisational and theoretical DNA.
With regards to climate change and its causation you could say similar things about a miriad of Labour Supporters, all of the 57+ varieties of Trostskyist organisation, a plethora of Anarchist groups, the Green Party, and probably some members and supporters of the Tory Party, in fact there are some eco fascists who would not be unhappy with the analysis offered by Monbiat. However the issue is not spotting the problem, it is working out what the solution is and how to achieve it.
As the saying goes, if your not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. On that basis Monbiot is part of the problem. If he is proposing that a wealth tax is a way to solve climate change, he’s clearly got no understanding of the economic, social and historic circumstances that created our current issues and has even less understanding of how to resolve the issues.
Surely the role of the Socialist Party is to oppose and be politically hostile to those who are not part of the solution. If you used the anaalgy that climate change was like being in a burning building, I’d be pretty hostile towards those who, although recognising that the building was on fire, who understood what had caused the file, bit then put forward the solution of huddling together and soaking ourselves in petrol.
As to being an idiot, the word derives from the Greek word “idiotes”, effectively “a private person” and its most common use was simply a private citizen or amateur as opposed to a government official, professional, or expert. In terms of understanding the way to solve Climate Change and other environmental issues gorgeous George is certainly an amateur and is certainly not an expert, so to me idiot seems to describe him to a tee.
Whilst I acknowledge that some of Monbiot’s criticisms of capitalism and the smoke screen of small measures used by what he describes as “big business” to stop the examination of their impact on the environment, what he is saying is a far distance from our case. It is not “big business” that’s the problem, this impies that “small business” is somehow ok. As Monbiot acknowledges most of the polution in most of the world’s rivers are produced by farmers, who for the most part are small businesses
It is not the individuals and their practices which are the issue, it is the market system and the way that it works. Monbiot’s solution “wealth taxes strike at the heart of the issue. They should be high enough to break the spiral of accumulation and redistribute the riches accumulated by a few“, shows just how far he needs to learn.
If Monbidiot is one of the mythical “fellow travellers” we have heard so much about, then I think the appropriate intellectual response to their ideas should be political hostility!
