Bijou Drains
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Moo, re reading what was written on page 2, there was a typo, my bad. I wrote “The abolition of private property does not mean the abolition of private property. Socialism wouldn’t entail common ownership of my vinyl collection.” I meant to write “The abolition of private property does not mean the abolition of personal property. Socialism wouldn’t entail common ownership of my vinyl collection.”
You have made exactly the point I meant to make. In a world of common ownership most trophies or awards, etc. would be personal property, therefore the comment you made, that trophies could not be in existence in a society of common ownership, is in my view wrong headed.
Going back to the trophy question, I would argue that my under 11s Northumberland area cubs football medal is personal property.
With regards to the “world cup” as it goes backwards and forwards between competitors, it would probably be best described as communally owned property that was temporarily in the safekeeping of whoever was the trophy holders.
If in a society of common ownership I can’t think of a reason why it would not be possible for the community in which that person to gave some kind of trophy or medal or certificate to a member of the community who rescued a child from drowning, or carried out some kind of especially kind act, et.
But are they any more naive by believing Trump’s horse shit than believing the horse shit the democrats feed them, implying that all or many of the problems that capitalism creates can be reformed away. In some ways that’s a more pernicious lie than the one Trump is selling them.
One of the things that I think would, should change in terms of education in a sane society would be getting rid of the idea that we can only learn in groups that are stratified strictly by age. Prior to the development of the education system where would any body find themselves in a social situation where a person spent most of their time with 30 odd people of more or less the same age. When I was a kid although you spent your school time with an age group, most of the valuable lessons were more or less learned on the street, playing out in fields and woods, etc. In that setting you had some of the kids who were five years older than you and some that were about five years younger. You learned to mentor and support younger children and you learned from the older kids. Surely in a socialist society we would move back to something akin to that system, older and younger children learning to play cooperate with each other, learning to support and being supportive. I’ve always found in adult learning that when there is a diversity in a class room, age, experience, gender, ethnicity, etc. the learning is much more profound and enjoyable.
I have two grand kids who are in primary school at the moment, and to be fair it is a reasonably warm and manageable setting for them, but I do worry about them going off to the bigger schools. Luckily where we live they have a middle school option as well, so kids go off to the middle school at age 8 and stay there until they are 13, which allows a little more time for them to develop before they go off to the local comp.
My granddaughter is only 4 years old and the buggers have her spending time doing bloody homework. Again the idea that learning is something is time limited and only takes place when the state dictates is something I hope will disappear alongside the state. We all learn in different ways, at different times, OFSTED, etc. seem to think that learning can be put into a one size fits all, whilst at the same time encouraging the psychobabble of so called “learning styles”
“But should I be offended that no one has picked me up and said anything scathing (nay personally insulting) on my comments in this debate?”
I think the problem is that you really need to stop providing balanced and well thought through comments, if you really want to get scathing remarks and personal insults.
Looking at things from different viewpoints and taking the views of others is not the way to enrage your fellow socialists. Please try to make outlandish claims and then take offence at the earliest possible moment. Dig your heels in, even if what you have said is unsupportable and whatever you don’t try and be reasonable.
I’m sure if you stick to these basic guidelines you will not only be able to glean unfavourable comment on this forum, if you put the hard yards in you will soon be able to upset close family members during social gatherings at the drop of a hat, be shunned by your work colleagues at staff nights out and generally considered as an all round grumpy old bastard. It worked for me, I’m sure it will work for you
K leather is used in lots of different leather products, however at least one major football boot manufacturer have stopped using K leather.
Just out of interest, TM, and genuinely not having a pop at you, do you make any use of leather products yourself? I have vegan friends who really struggle to get good quality replacements for leather shoe wear.
“exterminated in clearance for landfill for your old computers and gadgets” so how are the computers mine, rather than ours, or even yours TM? Are you trying to shift the blame.
I presume you are using a computer or a smart phone to write on this forum, rather than two old tin cans and a bit of string?
Again, Wez, you attempt to dig yourself out of a hole by conflating “football culture” from your original posting to “football gang violence”. Nice try, but rather pathetic. And again you make the uncomradely, inaccurate and frankly libelous remark that I wish to whitewash these activities.
Saying everything in football isn’t bad, isn’t saying everything is wonderful, as you well know. If you had the courage of your convictions and you had evidence to support your contention that the whole culture is rotten to the core, you clearly wouldn’t have tried to move the discussion away from football culture to football violence.
It is a bit like you blaming the birth of Rock and Roll, Bill Haley, Elvis Presley, Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry, et al, for the Teddy Boy violence that broke out in the 1950s and then describe Rock and Roll in the terms you have used. Teddy Boys were a very small aspect of Rock and Roll Culture, Football Gangs were a small aspect of football culture and what remains of football gang culture in the UK is something that the vast majority of football fans and participants used to and continue to condemn, me included.
As I have explained on several occasions, what you describe as “football culture” actually covers a wide spectrum of human activities and belief systems. I have also explained that to describe all elements of such a wide ranging area of human endeavours as being the “sickest, racist, atavistic and most violent” culture in the country (As I have said before, your words not mine), is foolhardy and factually wrong. It is therefore for you to justify your words. It is for you to show that by pointing out that this is such a silly, wide ranging and ridiculous comment I am somehow whitewashing any of the negative parts. It is you who has made universal claims, not me. I still challenge you to explain how football culture is more sick, more racist, more atavisitc and more violent than Nazism, snuff movies, skin head gangs, gay bashing, fox hunting, paedophilia, drug culture, I’m all ears mate.
I have pointed out that there are many areas of football that have very positive aspects, youth participation, sporting activity, mutual organisation, anti racism, etc. Explain to me how these things are sick, racist, atavistic and violent.
You then follow up your silly comments by making even an even sillier one. “No other sport been associated with such levels of violence and criminality”, I didn’t even need to point our how stupid that comment was. Other posters have beaten me to it. Boxing almost by definition is more violent, it has violence as its basic foundation and the level of criminality involved in boxing is legendary. I think the level of criminality of the Kray Brothers alone would knock football gangs into a cocked hat. You could also take a good look at the sport of horse racing, a sport that has had elements linked to organised crime for many decades. Are you saying that Ice Hockey is not associated with violence. You might also even want to look at the civil disorder that broke out in Leicester in 2022 following the India v Pakistan cricket match and spot fixing in cricket for examples of criminally and violent associations.
TM, you said that – “I could be wrong, but I don’t think they socialise much.”, I cannot comment in international football, my only experience of it was when Newcastle hosted group games during the European championships. All I can say in terms of that was that the fans of Romania, France and Bulgaria mixed with the locals in a very friendly way.
The atmosphere in football stadiums and their surrounds has changed immensely since the 1970ss 80s. I have been welcomed as a visiting supporter in Holland, Italy, Spain, Germany, etc. I watched a Newcastle v Paris match in a bar in central Paris as I couldn’t get a ticket. I honestly couldn’t get my hand in my pocket to buy a drink as locals were coming up to us and buying drinks for us all night. They celebrated their luck in getting a last minute penalty and we complained about the same thing. We sang and drank and played pool and chatted until the wee small hours.
I have also been to towns and cities across England and Wales where the welcome has been terrific. I well remember back in the 80s when Newcastle played Swansea at Swansea. The game was called off due to torrential storms on the Saturday and was rearranged on the following day. I heard loads of stories of supporters who decided to stay in Swansea and were about to sleep rough in bus shelters, etc. having local people come around to offer them a bed for the night and breakfast in the morning.
That is not to say that it is all sunshine and roses. I have been at matches which had less than pleasant atmospheres. I particularly remember going to Newcastle play at Nottingham Forest in the middle of the miners’ strike. Lots of North East Miners came down to the match as they could legitimately go to Nottingham without being arrested. There was a huge banner put on the back of the away end which read “Victory to the Miners” and there was a confrontational atmosphere all day.
As I say, “football culture” is not some universal monolithic social structure and to condemn the whole thing, including youth football, participant football at all levels, football spectators, all manner of football clubs professional to the lowest level, etc. is silly beyond belief.
Going back to Wez, I fully understand that you don’t like football. You are fully entitled to not like football, I can’t stand musical theatre, but to question someones socialist integrity because they like football is a bit beyond the pale. As I say, you are entitled to not enjoy football, but life not all about you, is it?
Wez, in my last comment, I actually meant to say that “stand up comedy is probably not going to be a future career”
Wez, as you well know, I did not say that your individual experiences were irrelevant, I was saying that they are exactly that, as you described, anecdotal and nothing more.
To be very clear, I am saying that you have then attempted to use your slim anecdotal evidence and make a huge generalisation stating that this whole area of people’s lives can be condensed into one overarching “culture” which you then describe as being (your words not mine) “sickest, racist, atavistic and most violent”
I have said that this is one of the silliest postings I have ever seen on this forum. I stand by that.
I have then provided counter evidence that outlines many of the positive elements of football. I did not say that all elements are positive, just that what you have said, that football is the “sickest, racist, atavistic and most violent” is a massive and ludicrous over exaggeration.
I have explained that what you describe as “football culture” actually includes a
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wide spectrum
of activities that are part of what you describe as “football culture”. I have then provided several examples that are in many ways the opposite of what you describe. One example for instance is the supporter and player initiative “show racism the red card”. An supporter initiative that was further developed following a £50 donation by the Newcastle United Player Shaka Hislop, and which has grown massively and has the stated aim to “combat racism through enabling role models, who are predominantly but not exclusively footballers, to present an anti-racist message to young people and others.”
It is not for me to show that all aspects of “football culture” are good, but to prove that your contention that football is “sickest, racist, atavistic and most violent” culture in this country is nothing of the sort.
I think I have provided ample evidence that what you have said is not correct. As you have used the superlative adjective in your description I have asked you again to explain how cultures such as “Nazism, snuff movies, skin head gangs, gay bashing, fox hunting, paedophilia, drug culture, etc.” are less sick, racist, atavistic and violent than football. If you don’t, then I am able to assume that you can’t.
I note that you have moved the goalposts (sic) from Football Culture to football gangs, desperate back peddling to change the discussion, it won’t work. You talked about football culture, not football gangs. I have not in anyway attempted to support football gangs, but football gangs are a small part of the spectrum of football and a part that seems to be largely dying out
You then in desperation resort to the classic “true Scotsman”device, “If you can’t see that then you’re at a level of denial that rational debate can’t reach.”,, c’mon, your better than that, surely?
Not content to use poor rhetorical devices you return to your old favourite, exaggeration. 15.7 million are obsessed with a commodity called football. No one has said that because you take part in football that you are therefore obsessed. It means 15.7 people play it regularly. They enjoy it, it keeps them fit, they meet people, they cooperate together they form common interests, they set up teams, leagues, tournaments, etc. How can that be the very opposite of socialist consciousness?
How can a children’s football team, set up by volunteers and parents, run at a loss, for example possibly be considered as a commodity. Football is a multi faceted and sport. At the top level of course, it is commodity driven, but the vast majority of football activities are not. Beer is commodity driven it often makes people feel a little bit happier as part of the difficult situations they face due to capitalism, should we all abstain from that, you could say the same about theatre, television, cinema, etc. are you saying we should condemn all of those activities?
If, as you say, Football is such a fetter on socialist consciousness, how it it that I have come across many, many socialists who enjoy or play football. This thread started by Paula posting to say that she was enjoying the football. We have a column in the standard which regularly discusses football. I was at the Durham Miners’ Gala yesterday and of the 9 or so party members that were present 4 of them follow football. Indeed if my memory serves me right, Paula’s dad was a fan of Partick Thistle, and made several comparisons between the plight of the party and the plight of The Jags. How is it that we all escaped the pervasive anti socialist “culture” to develop socialist insight?
And finally as a last escape route you explain that, it was all a joke, all a bit of tongue in cheek repartee. If that’s the case has it taken so long to say, it was all a joke. Is saying that a comrade is attempting to whitewash the sickest, racist, atavistic and most violent culture in this country your idea of witty banter? If it is, I would suggest that stand up comedy is probably going to be a future career
Wez – What I hear is the sound of someone clutching at straws.
You say that I am saying that “there’s absolutely no substance to my criticisms“. Can you point to me the point where I had stated that football is beyond criticism, I think you will find that is not the case.
You know, as I know, that you are using very well honed rhetorical devices and sophisms to try and get me to defend the behaviour of a minority of people who are involved in the world of football, good luck with that.
I didn’t say that all aspects of the game are beyond reproach, I did say that your prejudicial labeling of millions of people as being part of a “sick” culture was silly and unsupported by evidence. It is not for me to show that all aspects of what you describe as “football culture” are bad, but rather for you to demonstrate that all aspects of that culture are bad.
Let us go back to the beginning
You began by accusing me of whitewashing, what you (not me) described as the “sickest, racist, atavistic and most violent” culture in this country.
As I say, not my words but yours.
If, as you say, it is the sickest culture in the country, then by definition you think that football culture is more sick than say for instance the culture of, Nazism, snuff movies, skin head gangs, gay bashing, fox hunting, paedophilia, drug culture, etc. (I could add more), do you have the brass bollocks to even defend what you have said.
Are you prepared to say that, quoting me, that “the 15.7 million people who play football regularly (including the 3.7 million children aged 5 to 15 who play football as part of organised teams), the 1.4 people who volunteer weekly as part of grassroots football, the couple of million people who attend football matches on a regular basis across all levels of the game” are all part of that “sickest culture”
So, if you are supporting that view, can you explain just how those millions of people are part of that “sickest” culture.
To date, I have to say, you have used the weakest of anecdotal evidence to slur those millions of people.
Were those 15.7 million there when your father’s internment was snubbed, they were also in the pub when a few footballers bragged about the their tackles, and they all agreed with those comments. Or perhaps you are full of it.
In terms of my involvement in terms of football (not that it is any of your business), I played in organised teams from the age of 8. I played from that age, at various levels until I had to give up at the age of 52. I am currently at the age of 65 involved in walking football, which is an inclusive way of involving older people involved in sport.
I was actually part of the NE Branch of the SPGB’s 5 a side team back in the 80’s and without bragging we regularly beat the Militant’s team and the SWP’s team.
I played at the world famous Wallsend Boys club (a sporting facility that was created by shipyard workers on Tyneside that was set up by shipyard workers to provide sporting and leisure opportunities for boys and girls (four players from that team have played in the World Cup)
I have also spent many years working supporting child safeguarding for several Premier League football teams.
So yes, I have had lots of experiences across all aspects of football culture
“ Yes. It means those who reproduce themselves.
It only means the working class today”This is one of the problems that capitalism, following the introduction of more effective contraception, more and more members of the proletariat are less keen to reproduce themselves.
I don’t think this is due to any reluctance to have children, but rather the economic pressures that the profit motive that impacts on all sections of society.
Wages are likely to be set at the cheapest level which workers are prepared to accept. In previous periods those wages include the price of the generally inevitable cost of raising children. With choice about reproduction, the economic pressures will always favour the cheapest wages, i.e. the wages of workers who are reluctantly do without having children
Wez, so accusing someone of trying to whitewash racism and violence is somehow an act of true comradeship?
If it’s sauce for the goose, it’s sauce for the gander.
It’s interesting that the only thing to counter the facts, figures and examples I gave, is to say that the pubs used to close on Saturday when there was a home game in Cambridge (presumably that doesn’t happen now) and then accuse me of some kind of personal deficiency. I think the paucity of your reply speaks volumes. No attempt to counter, or offer supporting evidence, just some vague historical anecdotal evidence.
You feel comfortable to sum up the various experiences, relationships, enjoyment and endeavours of millions of million people and call it “football culture”.
If an individual condemned the culture of black people because of the misdeeds of a very small number of black people, they would be quite rightly described as racists.
Yet you are branding millions of people who participate and enjoy many aspects of football as being sick, racist, atavistic and violent based on the evidence that the pubs used to be closed down on Saturday afternoons a couple of decades ago.
You just compound the stupidity of your original statement.
Wez – “You wouldn’t be attempting to whitewash ‘football culture’ in this country – would you? In my experience it is the sickest, racist, atavistic and most violent sub-culture in this country”
I wasn’t sure if I should dignify such a fatuous, condescending and silly question with an answer, but on balance, it is probably best I do,
To define the cultural experiences of the 15.7 million people who play football regularly (including the 3.7 million children aged 5 to 15 who play football as part of organised teams), the 1.4 people who volunteer weekly as part of grassroots football, the couple of million people who attend football matches on a regular basis across all levels of the game, in the terms you describe is amongst the most poorly thought out comments I have ever seen on this forum (and there have been a lot).
Taking one point, in terms of “violence” in football, in the last season that has been fully reported there were, 2,037 arrests in total across organised football matches across England and Wales. Bear in mind this is arrests, not convictions, and as you know the police have a long history of arresting people without things progressing to charging. The large majority was from being drunk, not violent. Statically, football matches and their environs are amongst the safest places in the UK, far, far safer than most large shopping areas, music venues, night clubs, etc.
I could say more about the great football writers, the strength and vitality of fan created initiatives such as show racism the red card, the way football has created a huge message about the value of multiculturalism, the growth of the fanzine movement, the inclusiveness that has been fostered across the whole of football regarding disability (including local clubs setting up sensory areas for children with autism), the growth of fan run clubs that demonstrate models of mutuality, etc. but your probably too blinkered and stupid to consider these things.
