Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitic

April 2024 Forums General discussion Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitic

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  • #247894
    robbo203
    Participant

    I wonder what Turkey´s role in this growing crisis is going to be. Erdogan has been extremely critical of the Western regimes´ response to the situation in Gaza. Turkey is also a member of NATO and you have to wonder how this will pan out for the future of NATO itself.

    I read somewhere that Turkey intends to send aid by sea to Gaza which presumably could bring it into conflict with the Israeli blockade. The last time that happened in 2010 the Israeli military boarded a Turkish ship and killed 10 civilians

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/25/turkeys-erdogan-scraps-israel-trip-over-inhumane-gaza-war

    #247895
    ALB
    Keymaster

    Now the US has joined in with a strike on Iranian forces in Syria. It’s the Gulf War syndrome. The application of the Carter Doctrine enunciated by President Carter in his state of the union message on 23 January 1980:

    “Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Doctrine#:~:text=The%20Carter%20Doctrine%20was%20a,interests%20in%20the%20Persian%20Gulf.

    In other words, the US will go to war if there was any attempt to challenge its control of the Arabian oilfields and of the trade route out through the Persian Gulf.

    At the time the threat came from Russia. Twenty years ago it was Iraq under Saddam Hussein. Now it is Iran under the ayatollahs. Israel has always been the US’s rather unruly and often rogue proxyin the area. Which will be why Iran is so against it. Israel and Iran have in fact been in a state of undeclared war for a number of years now.

    Two US aircraft carriers are in the eastern Mediterranean to protect Israel as its proxy against Iran by deterring Iran from joining in. They won’t want a war. Iran probably doesn’t either. It remains to be seen how successful the US is in preventing Israel putting a match to the powder keg.

    #248011
    KAZ
    Participant

    iran-linked sites. it’s still a proxy war. just like in ukraine. the septics are off their noodles on blood and guts but they still have the sense not to engage where they’re going to lose (which is pretty much everywhere).

    #248013
    KAZ
    Participant

    come here looking for the spgb gaza piece. damned if i can find it. wanna pick holes. wanna be smart arse.

    #248021
    ALB
    Keymaster

    It’s on the front page of our website here:

    October 2023

    #248028
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    https://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2023-10-21/falsification-of-history-and-the-warsaw-ghetto

    Falsification of history and the Warsaw ghetto. The false old conception of colonialism. Comparing the Israeli Hamas conflict with Nazism which is extreme nationalism and the dictatorship of the the single political party. Ironically propagated by Stalinists and Trotskyists who supported and continuing supporting the dictatorship of the vanguard party to lead. The Palestinian also experimented killing and genocide from the Arabs capitalists in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and others places, it is not a one side conflict. In Israel also there are thousands of poor workers and many are from others countries including asian and filipinos who are also exploited by the capitalist class in the same manner that Palestinian are exploited by capitalists including Arab capitalists
    https://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2023-10-18/there-is-no-state-solution-only-class-war
    https://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2023-10-12/the-descent-from-fantasy-to-reality-in-the-arab-israeli-conflict

    #248031
    ZJW
    Participant

    Ah, KAZ is here. Excellent. KAZ, what is AnarCom Network? I mean what is it in relation to the Anarchist Communist Group? Is the ACG part of it?? Are there ‘programmatic’ (political) differences? (If you answer in Paleo-Londonian or Cockney or whatever that demotic is that you’re prone to use, I won’t understand it, so don’t. I am but a linguistically innocent trans-Atlantican.)

    AnarCom Network // Revolutionary Anarchist Communists

    #248032
    ZJW
    Participant

    ‘the Hamas organisation, who are both anti-Israeli and anti-semitic’, says the article.

    But for what it’s worth, which is not much, unlike in their 1988 Charter (which was explicitly anti-semitic), in their 2017 Charter, they *apparently* claim they are not. See points 16 and 17: https://palwatch.org/storage/documents/hamas%20new%20policy%20document%20010517.pdf .

    #248042
    ALB
    Keymaster

    Put to the comrade who drafted the leaflet they comment:

    “Yes, they ‘claim’ they are not ‘anti-semitic’, and the tone and the terms of their 2017 charter may be different from their 1988 one. But their deeds – and other of their words – still show them as manifestly anti-semitic. Apart from the fact that Jews are demonised in the official school curriculum and Hamas leaflets describe them as ‘bloodsuckers’, ‘brothers of apes’, and ‘human pigs’ and that ‘deceit and usury are stamped in their nature’, can we really interpret the scenes of raped, brutalised women being paraded across Gaza by gleeful militants and hooted at by cheering crowds as anything but a manifestation of those characterisations? It manifests as the kind of anti-semitism practised by the nazis. Note too by the way that even now they are claiming that their slaughter of people at the ‘rave’ took place because they mistakenly thought that those attending were involved in military manoeuvres. So it would be straining all credibility and utterly naive of us to accept at face value Hamas’s ‘formal’ statements and in particular the one that they are anti-zionist and not anti-semitic.”

    #248047
    KAZ
    Participant

    ZJW: the ACN is a split from the ACG of some of its most active members. ostensibly on the perennial transgender issue (we weren’t nice enough). but really because those who left have different ideas on how to organise. in my opinion there is no ideological difference.

    whee doggy! how you like them apples buddy! yeehaa! (is manky (mock yank talk) any better?)

    #248048
    KAZ
    Participant

    i tried to use the quote function but the system blocked me. i’m never sure if there’s a malicious member hanging about (traitor! traitor! let’s nail his balls to the wall) or whether it’s just poor quality programming.

    anyway, got no beef wiv the spugub gaza statement. corblimey. luvaduck.

    #248049
    Bijou Drains
    Participant

    “i tried to use the quote function but the system blocked me. i’m never sure if there’s a malicious member hanging about (traitor! traitor! let’s nail his balls to the wall)”

    From your occasional postings, I really never had you down as a Stirnerist, but perhaps your apparent sense of egoism betrays you.

    The truth is, mate, your not that important to be blocked by us, or probably any one else. Sorry to upset you.

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by Bijou Drains.
    #248051
    robbo203
    Participant

    I don’t know what to make of this. Sometimes it is hard to know who or what to believe when it comes to geopolitical conflicts but this appeared in my intray:

    “According to Hinkle, a Haaretz investigation (no link) revealed the number of Israeli dead is 900, not nearly 2,000; 50% of the dead were Israeli soldiers; the majority of the deaths were the result of IDF tank fire; there isn’t evidence Hamas burnt Israelis and the burns present occurred from Israeli shelling; no beheaded babies; Hamas shot less than 100 people, and most were settlers with guns.”

    https://kurtnimmo.substack.com/p/the-zionist-project-is-headed-for?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=312109&post_id=138369265&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=ql1uw&utm_medium=email

    #248058
    robbo203
    Participant
    #248064
    ALB
    Keymaster

    The justifications for Israel slaughtering civilians in pursuit of a “just” cause brings out some interesting historical facts. Here’s one from a letter in today’s Times.:

    “In June 1944 the Allies launched an invasion of Normandy, an area comparable with that of Gaza, aimed at overcoming and driving out the occupying forces of Nazi Germany. In the process up to 20,000 French civilians, many of them children and the elderly, were killed in collateral damage, almost all of which was caused by the British and American bombing and shelling of centres of population such as Caen.”

    I didn’t know that, did any of you? Up to twenty thousand slaughtered ! So, it’s ok for the Israeli army to do the same and have a free hand to reach the same figure (as they may well by the time they’ve finished)? What sort of warped logic is that?

    Meanwhile a Tory MP has been given the boot from a junior government position for letting his humanity get the better of him by supporting a stop to the killing of innocent civilians in Gaza.

    https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/rishi-sunak-sacks-tory-mp-ceasefire-israels-war-against-hamas-2721916

    Starmer of course would never do that as he likes to be seen behaving like a responsible prime minister of UK PLC. Like Sunak. Spot the difference if you can.

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