October 30, 2023 at 8:26 pm #248065
In some cities in Germany the destruction and killing was bigger than the destruction produced by the atomic bombs dropped in Japan who were two experimental bombs dropped in a civilian population
The main intention of the invasion of Normandy was in order to stop the Soviet army who had the intention to take Europe completely and Churchill told Ike to move the invasion toward East EuropeOctober 30, 2023 at 9:08 pm #248066
The one million dollars question is: Why Jewish ( religion ) Islamic, and Christians lived more than 900 years together in peace and harmony in territory populated by Islamics ?
Most evangelicals do not know that Christianity was born in Rome and that the events written in the New Testament ( Greek and Roman scripture ) are false, and that the so-called Exodus never took place and it has been proven by Anthropologists from Israel.
The original primitive Christians did not support the state, emperors, slavery and wars, even more, in that time, it was one of the most advanced and progressive religions created by man ( it means man and women ) and it was based on a mythology.
The US evangelical are influenced by their religious leaders who do not know the real history of Christianity and the real history of the Bible and are basing their reasoning on the Apocalypses and the Exodus, and since the very beginning of the founding of the US they have always supported the state, wars and the state leaders have always used them to promote their capitalists interests.
Before the creation of Israel the religious idea was that the salvation of mankind would have come thru the Egyptians instead of the Jews, and it was also written by the Rosicrucians. Most christians do not know the real history of their own religion, to understand religion we must understand the primitive religion, and to understand why human beings created them, and they do not know that either.
Stalin on his book on the National Question demonstrated that the Jews were not a nation, and Palestine is only a subdivision of the Ottoman Empire, the real reason for the British and USA capitalists to justify the creation of Israel was in order to have a gendarme to defend their interests after the discovery of petroleum and minerals in that region and wrapped around religious justification, even more, at the beginning they had the intention to create Israel in Angola, but they did not have a biblical justification to do that.
The Jewish leaders have cited many biblical passages in order to justify their killings and taking of territory but most of them never took place, it is like the US Christians who have said that Trump is the new Cyrus and the anointed of Jehovah, and that is one of the reason why many workers support him and have created a cult around him, but that concept serve pretty well the interests of the US capitalist class, as well the Bible was used to justify slavery and US expansionism.
Historical materialism is the only reasoning that explain the real roots and application of religion, and it is not the conception of the so called secular atheists, some of them support capitalism and wars, even more, the soviet leaders were atheists capitalists
The new speaker of the US House of Representative is a reactionary extremist christians which has not differentiation with an extremist Islamic or Taliban, and will try to mix religion with state management which is also a violation of the US constitution ( In God we trust was inserted in the US dollars after the enactment of the constitution ) and most evangelical are supporting his nomination and he is already supporting the financing of the war in the Middle East, therefore they also support killing and genocides similar to the doctrine of discovery emitted by the VaticanOctober 30, 2023 at 9:20 pm #248069james19Participant
X twitter someone has made a poll. Who should Socialists support? Israel or Palestine. Can’t find the poll now?
I tweeted this: Neither. Workers have no country. This is a basic tenent of Marxism.
Just as the Party opposition to the State of Israel, we oppose the creation of a Palestinian state. Only Socialism,a Stateless, moneyless, production to meet needs, with free access to goods and services is in the interests of the working class.October 30, 2023 at 10:23 pm #248070Socialist Party Head OfficeParticipant
James, we are having a leaflet done to give out at demonstrations and meetings about the war. If you would like some to distribute can you contact Head Office: spgb[at]worldsocialism.org to let us know how many.October 31, 2023 at 1:33 pm #248075ZJWParticipant
Re Robbo’s #248064 above —
On this topic, an ll minute interview of Lee Fang by Glenn Greenwald:October 31, 2023 at 8:49 pm #248079
The main drive is not religion, the main drive is to defend the interests of the capitalist class, both Democrats and Republicans are representative of the US capitalist class and none of those so called religious peoples are not going to say that, they will look for all kind of religious excuses in order to cover the reality, religion is used in order to look for support within the ranks of the working class. There are many workers who are not religious peoples and they are defending Israel, as well, the population of religious peoples in the USA is declining specially within the Protestants
PS Our November Editorial article will confirm that type of reasoning. It has been historically proven that
Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived in peace and harmony for 900 years until nationalism and the economical interests of the capitalist powers created division among them, therefore, it does show that the main problem is not religion
November 1, 2023 at 8:24 am #248084ALBKeymaster
- This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by Almamater.
Don’t forget the pipelines? This video, made by someone in Damascus, while it doesn’t explain the Israeli-Gaza War could be taken into account as a contribution to understanding why the US and the “West” are so supportive of Israel and tolerant of its atrocities. In any event, it’s a much more plausible explanation than that Israel is a “liberal democracy” or guilt about what happened to the Jews in Europe in Ww2.November 1, 2023 at 10:05 am #248085Lizzie45Participant
Post today on the SPGB’s Spopen forum by an ex-Executive Committee member.
I’ve just read the party leaflet on Gaza and I would never distribute such a leaflet. I think its an insult to the Palestinians being slaughtered.
This is not a war and workers are not fighting each other. Gaza is being flattened by Israel using US bombs. Hamas breached the border with hang gliders and pickup trucks, allowed to do so for over 6 hours.
The citizens of Gaza were living in an open air prison and now Hell! This is genocide and the party should call it out as such.
The time for leaflets is when emotions are not running high and when workers are not bombarded with scenes of atrocities.
To be quite frank I would be ashamed to hand out that cold and in my opinion inaccurate statement.November 1, 2023 at 10:43 am #248086robbo203Participant
Post today on the SPGB’s Spopen forum by an ex-Executive Committee member.
“Perhaps the leaflet could have been more forthright in its condemnation of the Israeli state, I agree, but, in fairness, it did talk about Israel´s “savage retaliation” and the dire consequences for ordinary Palestinians of the blockade (though unfortunately, it talked of only “hundreds” of Palestinians as having died when I think the figure is over 8000 already and rising). My criticism would be that talking about the actions of the Israeli state as “retaliation” kind of decontextualizes the conflict and the decades-long oppression and murder visited upon Palestinian workers by the racist Israeli state (which is exactly what is and we shouldn’t mince our words about this!). “Retaliation” is the wrong word in this context as it could be misconstrued to suggest that the Israeli state was blameless to begin with. It is not
The other point I would make is that while the leaflet is right to condemn Hamas we shouldn’t appear to be buying into the official Israeli government narrative by talking in an unqualified fashion about the “horrors unleashed on innocent people by Hamas”. There is growing evidence provided by survivors in the Kibbutzim that a lot of the victims, possibly the majority, of the Hamas raid on Oct 7th were killed by crossfire from the Israeli army, There is also zero hard evidence to support the claim that 40 babies were beheaded. This seems to have been a story on par with First World War claims of Germans bayonetting babies concocted to whip up public anger and disgust.
I would treat with caution all propaganda emanating from all sides in a military situation. It’s like they say about Truth being the first casualty of war.
This situation in Gaza is going to persist for some time and possibly escalate now with developments in Syria and Russia opening up its airbase there (Latakia?) to Syrian and Iranian transport planes (that could provide weapons to Hezbollah): The possibility of a very sharp escalation and widening of the war into a regional war is very real .- particularly if that idiot Netanyahu gives the go-ahead for Israeli planes to attack Latika (which is very well defended with surface to air missiles):; All help will break loose then. Russia could retaliate and then the US carriers stationed in the Med could be drawn directly into the conflict. That might mean a world war. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility though unlikely….
I think in view of the situation the Party needs to take a much firmer and more robust response. At the very least, another more updated leaflet is called for in my opinion”November 1, 2023 at 11:24 am #248089Lizzie45Participant
All the signs are in place that Israel is once again seriously considering a massive ethnic cleansing operation, conducted at lightning speed and with US assistance.November 1, 2023 at 9:18 pm #248094
Don’t forget the pipelines? This video, made by someone in Damascus, while it doesn’t explain the Israeli-Gaza War could be taken into account as a contribution to understanding why the US and the “West” are so supportive of Israel and tolerant of its atrocities. In any event, it’s a much more plausible explanation than that Israel is a “liberal democracy” or guilt about what happened to the Jews in Europe in Ww2.
The idea of equating this situation with WW2, the Nazis and the jews is a distortion created by left-wingers who have always supported inter class, or inter capitalist dispute, but they support one element of Nazism/Fascism which is the dictatorship of one partyNovember 1, 2023 at 9:21 pm #248095
Greenwald’s delivery is slurred. I think he is out of his nut on Coke. Anyway apart from that we are all going to die. Let’s hope this Armaggedon is QUICK…November 1, 2023 at 9:29 pm #248096
Pete Sessions is also either out of his nut (High) or drunk. Just examine his speech patterns. Lee Fang is the only sober agent here. We are totally fucked.
November 1, 2023 at 9:42 pm #248098
- This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by Ozymandias.
The leftwing of capital is running a so-called internationalist campaign to provide support to the Palestinian nationalism which is not different to Israeli nationalism, and some so-called socialist and marxist are taking part in this patriotic movement also based on the false conception of ethnicity which is also nationalism in disguise.
It is not the main objective of the socialist party to take side with any nationalist movement, and at the present time there is not any anti war movement, they are nationalist movement defending any side of the conflict similar to the war in Ukraine, even more, during the Vietnam war there was not any anti war movement when they were taking side with the Vietcong which was also a Maoist nationalist movement and they committed crimes like the others groups that were part of the conflict and now they are the ruling class of Vietnam
The Palestinian have suffered killing, genocides, and discrimination in the Arabs countries too, and they also experimented killing and persecutions in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Saudi Arabia, in that aspect we can also talk about thousands instead of hundred, and in certain moment they wanted to become refugee in Israel, this is not one track mind conflict, this is a two sides conflict performed by the capitalist class of both sides.
Most members of the left of capital do not mention that Hamas were the cheerleaders of Israel and they received financing from Israel and the USA in order to make opposition to the PLO, like Isis and the Taliban, to oppose the soviet capitalists, and they became rich thru corruption and economic exploitation, and some members of leftwing organizations have forgotten or do not know that soldiers and policemen are also members of the working class employed by the capitalist class, and that the state is an institution financed by the capitalist class, it is not the organ of the so called peoples, and every nation is divided between capitalists and workers and we do not have any common interests with our rulers, the concept of peoples is false. The ruling class of Iran is as reactionary, backward and recalcitrant as the ruling class of Israel and other arabs countries, even more the labor laws of Gazas are based on the reactionary laws of the Ottoman empire
Hamas knew that by attacking Israel they were going to provoke retaliation and that is what they wanted in order to obtain support from other Jihad groups in the Middle East , and to obtain funding from other arabs countries, and to extend a war in that region, and there are other regional capitalist groups who have their own interests too, and they also knew that by attacking Israel the USA was going to respond in order to defend Israel and to protect its regional hegemony, this is a war between armed groups, and wars are conflict among capitalists, the capitalist class use workers in order to die for them
Our analysis is based on socialist principles, we are not running a campaign of sympathy or based on ethnicity, races, nationality, or national prides, we are not left wingers, nationalists or patriotic, our editorial of November clearly indicate what we advocate, and we have said it hundred of times that the Palestinian and Israeli nation is a myth and we do not support mythologyNovember 1, 2023 at 9:46 pm #248099
Just also check the erratic behaviour of Lauren Boebert. She is also a Cokehead. Look at her. These cunts have their fingers on the trigger.
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