Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitic

May 2024 Forums General discussion Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitic

Viewing 15 posts - 811 through 825 (of 834 total)
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  • #251583
    ALB
    Keymaster

    Looks as if Iran has responded to the SWP’s call to “Smash Israel”.

    But, seriously, the real conflict of economic interests in the Middle East — over who shall control the oil and the trade routes there — may be breaking out into real war, to which Israel’s war of savage revenge on Hamas and the population of Gaza has only been a horrific side-show. This even as far as the US is concerned as Israel’s actions there threatened to undermine the real reason it defends Israel — as its boots on the grounds and planes in the air to defend its economic interests in the region.

    It’s an application of the Carter Doctrine proclaimed by President Carter in 1980 (and implemented on a number of previous occasions since):

    “Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.”

    #251584
    Bijou Drains
    Participant

    Wonder if the great brains in the SWP have thought through the consequences of “smashing Israel” when Israel has a government heavily populated with religious fanatics that also has access to nuclear weapons?

    #251605
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    I thought capitalist economics produced war, not religion or ideology.
    I think we all know too that no Middle Eastern state can “smash Israel.”

    #251609
    Bijou Drains
    Participant

    Ideology and religion develop and adapt to meet the needs of the ruling class, that doesn’t preclude the possibility that some of those governing the capitalist state might believe some of the horseshit they’ve created.

    No doubt some of those who create fetish objects to be venerated will also believe in the power of their fetish objects, despite the fact that they created them

    #251612
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    But these elements of the superstructure do not force states into war. They do, however, serve to hoodwink the workers into taking part.
    The second world war had nothing to do with Nazi ideology, although Nazi ideology served German capitalism’s purposes at the time. Hitler was instructed to eliminate the most fanatical believers in Nazi ideology, which he did, because they were an obstacle to the state’s requirements. However, once the war had broken out (for economic reasons), it facilitated the Holocaust, which catered both to ideology and to profit (the exploitation of prisoners for slave labour).
    But ideology does not CAUSE war. The most it does is facilitate the atrocities war produces.

    #251618
    Bijou Drains
    Participant

    I’m not saying that ideology causes war. I’m saying that it is feasible that if the SWP’s desired outcome, of the destruction of Israel as a nation state, was about to take place, there’s a pretty high chance that, if the ultra religious elements within the government had the power to do it, they would set off their nuclear bombs.

    #251620
    Thomas_More
    Participant
    #251621
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    Talk of smashing any country means supporting the mass murder of fellow workers.

    “He who celebrates victory rejoices in killing.” (Lao Tsu).

    So those Trotskyists are no different from the Stalinists who support war in Ukraine.

    #251685
    james19
    Participant

    Warning ⚠️ distressing language

    Benn talks about the UN the last war, the war to end all wars. The biggest lie in history.

    Would this be deemed antisemitic?

    https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGeHUDfHv/

    #251701
    DJP
    Participant

    I probably haven’t read every comment in this thread. We know that Anti-Zionism is not (necessarily) anti-Semitic. But has there been much mention or discussion of anti-semitic Zionism? This explains right-wing evangelical Christian support for Zionism, for example.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_antisemitism

    #251758
    james19
    Participant

    The fallout in the US is the banning of TikTok. Overwhelming evidence that it is because it has turned young Americans against Isreal and the War in Gaza.

    I tweeted about how the Party was banned from publishing the Socialist Standard during the war.
    A summary here:

    https://x.com/censoredmen/status/1783184824712204558?s=46

    #251768
    DJP
    Participant

    They wanted to ban TikTok way before the current Israeli assault on Gaza started. It’s because of geo-political rivalry with China.

    The Standard wasn’t banned from publishing in the wars years was it? I think some article were redacted though?

    #251770
    DJP
    Participant

    I don’t know how interested other people are in listening to this kind of thing, but this podcast episode seems like a good summary of Hannah Arendts ‘The Banality of Evil’. One of the themes of this book, which doesn’t get taught often, is the two-way compliance between Zionists and anti-semites during the holocaust.

    #251773
    ALB
    Keymaster

    This article by Hugo Rifkind well describes the situation between “secular Jews” and the religious Jews represented by the Board of Jewish Deputies (who led the campaign to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn and are now gunning for the London police chief).

    The person at the centre of the controversy turns out not to have been a Jewish person returning from a synagogue but the leader of the “Campaign against Anti-Semitism” who set out to provoke an incident and did so probably even beyond his own expectations.

    #251945
    ALB
    Keymaster

    Anti-antizionism bill passed:

    https://news.yahoo.com/house-vote-gop-antisemitism-bill-200600525.html

    As Hugo Rifkind pointed out in his “Ban the marches and Jews will get the blame” article above, this will be counter-productive in that it will tend to increase genuine antisemitism since some people will blame “the Jews” in general for this restriction on free speech.

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