Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitic

August 2020 Forums General discussion Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitic

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 241 total)
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  • #132459
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    Israel plays the Holocaust card yet againhttps://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-holocaust-syria/netanyahu-uses-holocaust-event-to-urge-action-against-syria-iran-idUKKBN1HI31S

    #132460
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    https://mailstrom.blogspot.com/2012/10/jewish-history.htmlA useful read from my personal blog Mailstrom  of an article by Schlomo Sand, professor of history at Tel Aviv university.

    #132461
    ALB
    Participant
    bbc wrote:
    Mr Gabbay says the policies of Israel's opposition party and the ruling coalition government were "aligned" when it came to the "security of our citizens and the actions of our soldiers" and Mr Corbyn had shown "hatred" of the government's policies in these areas.

    Here is a prime example of someone using the new, invalid extension of the meaning of anti-semitism to mean not just "hatred of Jews" but "hatred of policies of the government of Israel". The Israeli Labour Party is of course a Zionist outfit.

    #132462
    ALB
    Participant
    alanjjohnstone wrote:
    https://mailstrom.blogspot.com/2012/10/jewish-history.htmlA useful read from my personal blog Mailstrom  of an article by Schlomo Sand, professor of history at Tel Aviv university.

    Is this true:

    Sand wrote:
    Israel is a state which forbids marriage between a ‘Jew’ and a ‘non-Jew’,

    It can't be, can it? Is Israel really that bad?

    #132463
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-could-you-marry-in-israel-1.5250455It seems that indeed there is no interfaith "mixed" marriages permittedNo civil marriage exists in Israel…but there is civil unions.

    #132464
    ALB
    Participant

    More here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_IsraelApparently, the same applies to Israeli subjects who are Muslims and Christians. They can't marry outside their religion either. Israel is continuing to apply the situation that existed under the Ottoman Empire except that it is Jews not Muslims who are the top dogs. So Israel is a backward country in this respect, though not as bad a Apartheid South Africa as sexual relations between people of different religions don't seem to be illegal. It's a sectarian State.

    #132465
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    I wonder how those so keen to accuse Labour Party and Corbyn would have treated Gerald Kaufman if he was still alivehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Kaufman#Criticism_of_IsraelHe supported BDS, he accused Israel of being an apartheid state, he accused Israeli politicians of exploiting The Holocaust, he said Israel was committing war crimes, he accused sections of the Tory Party of being controlled by Jewish millionaires. Would he be another self-hating jew as Chomsky, Finkelstein Sanders and many other Jewish critics of Israel policies are? They accuse such people of using their Jewishness as a weapon against Israel and other Jews. Would the British state ever include such attitudes in their definition of anti-semitism?

    #132466
    robbo203
    Participant
    alanjjohnstone wrote:
    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-could-you-marry-in-israel-1.5250455It seems that indeed there is no interfaith "mixed" marriages permittedNo civil marriage exists in Israel…but there is civil unions.

     That would make the Israeli state not unlike the Apartheid state in South Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_of_Mixed_Marriages_Act,_1949 In other words Zionism could be construed as a form of racism

    #132467
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    robbo203 wrote:
    alanjjohnstone wrote:
    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-could-you-marry-in-israel-1.5250455It seems that indeed there is no interfaith "mixed" marriages permittedNo civil marriage exists in Israel…but there is civil unions.

     That would make the Israeli state not unlike the Apartheid state in South Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_of_Mixed_Marriages_Act,_1949 In other words Zionism could be construed as a form of racism

    Not really  for the specific religious question. If we take being jewish as  strictly religious matter. It used to be a requirement for protestants to convert to catholicism before they could get a church wedding. Where civil ceremonies exist it supplanted this to some extent. I think this may be the case with some other religions also.

    #132468
    ALB
    Participant
    Quote:
    In other words Zionism could be construed as a form of racism

    You can't say that or you'll be done for anti-semitism. Here's the official government definition of anti-semitism:https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism

    Quote:
    However, for those seeking a definition of antisemitism, the UK’s College of Policing does include a working definition of antisemitism in their guidance to police forces in the UK. The full guidance is available from their website here and the definition is reproduced in full here:(…)Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

    Safer to say that Israel is a sectarian endeavour.

    #132469
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    Israel possesses a problem with religious sects such as the Orthodox who wish to have their rules imposed such as those concerning marriage and others who seek it to be a fully theocratic state. Many in the cosmopolitan cities such as Tel Aviv favour the more secular state. I recall many years ago, ambulances being stoned by fanatic fundamentalists for working on the Sabbath before some sort of compromise was reached. It is useful to remind those who raise the scare story of Muslims wishing Sharia law in the UK that for many contracts such as divorce Jewish rabbinic law is followed with their own court system, beth din, in the UK

    #132470
    robbo203
    Participant
    Matt wrote:
    robbo203 wrote:
     That would make the Israeli state not unlike the Apartheid state in South Africa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_of_Mixed_Marriages_Act,_1949 In other words Zionism could be construed as a form of racism

     Not really  for the specific religious question. If we take being jewish as  strictly religious matter. It used to be a requirement for protestants to convert to catholicism before they could get a church wedding. Where civil ceremonies exist it supplanted this to some extent. I think this may be the case with some other religions also.

     You may be right Matt but I would be  more persuaded if it were the case that one could still, as a person of the Jewish faith, officially marry someone not of that faith at all.  But apparently you cannot if what Alan says is correct – meaning the Israeli state forbids it – and you have to wonder why.  Even being of the same faith would not necessarily preclude racism BTW. A good example of this  is  the“Limpieza de Sangre” – purity of blood – discriminatory decree enacted at the time of the Spanish Inquisition to differentiate between "Old Christians" and "New Christians" (converts from Judaism and Islam) and applied even more vigorously when Spain acquired its colonial possessions abroad Zionists – Israeli natonalists – are constantly whinging that their critics  are resorting to anti-semitisim in wanting  to deny the "Jewish people"  the right to a homeland of their own just like any other "people".  They can't pin this transperently feeble argument on us socialists since we oppose ALL nationalisms – Israeli nationalism or Zionism,  Palestinian nationalism, British nationalism , Russsian nationalism.etc etc..We identify with the interests of workers in Israel just as much as the workers elsewhere in their struggles against capital.   Anti-semitism is as much a barrier to socialism as Zionism is. Havent read it yet but have just com across which looks interesting:http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/zionism.html

    #132471
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    All I am saying is it is not necessarily the Israeli state whch forbids it, while everything  else you say still applies.There is just no provision for civil mariage, although civil unions can be done. There may have been no actual demand for this provision.I don't know if, for example in the Irish republic, civil mariages were permitted during De Valera's time, say as a  continuum of U.K. law, but it is very unlikely Protestants could have married Catholics in a religious ceremony without conversion in any part of the U.K. until recently.That particular problem is one of a religious dimension, which as always can be utilised and manipulated within the political field by powermongers. 

    #132472
    robbo203
    Participant
    Matt wrote:
    All I am saying is it is not necessarily the Israeli state whch forbids it, while everything  else you say still applies.There is just no provision for civil mariage, although civil unions can be done. There may have been no actual demand for this provision.I don't know if, for example in the Irish republic, civil mariages were permitted during De Valera's time, say as a  continuum of U.K. law, but it is very unlikely Protestants could have married Catholics in a religious ceremony without conversion in any part of the U.K. until recently.That particular problem is one of a religious dimension, which as always can be utilised and manipulated within the political field by powermongers. 

     Thanks Matt.  To be honest, "interfaith marraiges in Israel" is not a subject I have explored much so it is interesting to hear what you say.  I am a little confused by some of the links Ive come across though.  For example this one says:"According to Israeli newspaper Haaretz, interfaith marriages now account for one in ten unions in Israel, "with the non-Jewish partner often subjected to second-class treatment by the state". In spite of this, interfaith marriages in the country are still on the rise, the paper says."   (http://www.theweek.co.uk/middle-east/60050/how-unusual-are-interfaith-marriages-in-israel) However correct me if I am wrong, while the state does not ban mixed marriages as such it only recognises marraiges perfomed by the relevant religious authorities which in the case of Jews or Muslims will not sanction mixed marriages.  For instance, according to Wikipedia  Marriages in Israel can be performed only under the auspices of the religious community to which couples belong, and no religious intermarriages can be performed legally in Israel.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Israel) So how, in that case, are interfaith marriages possible??? Lastly, there is  this bit which I have copied and pasted from the Quora website which is interesting – particularly the last quote with its clearly racist overtones“Israel's Knesset has extended a law that bans Palestinians married to Israelis from living with their spouses in Israel for another year.The law was first passed in 2003 and extended in 2008, and forbids Palestinians married to Israelis from living in Israel, or becoming Israeli citizens.Many critics say that the law essentially makes marriage between Israelis and Palestinians impossible, as the couple would have to live in different countries that are very difficult to pass between.” “Mixed Israeli and Palestinian couples are not only unable to live together inside Israel but they are also denied a married life in the occupied territories, from which Israeli citizens are banned under military regulations.”“Yoel Hasson of the ruling Kadima party hailed the court’s decision as “a victory for those who believe in Israel as a Jewish state”, while the immigration absorption minister, Zeev Boim, added: “We have to maintain the state’s democratic nature, but also its Jewish nature. The extent of entry of [Palestinian spouses] into Israel’s territories is intolerable.””Obviously this isn’t a problem if one is Jewish. Remember what Israeli founding father, Jabotinsky once wrote:"It is impossible for a man to become assimilated with people whose blood is different from his own. In order to become assimilated, he must change his body, he must become one of them, in blood. … There can be no assimilation as long as there is no mixed marriage. … An increase in the number of mixed marriages is the only sure and infallible means for the destruction of nationality as such. … A preservation of national integrity is impossible except by a preservation of racial purity, and for that purpose we are in need of a territory of our own where our people will constitute the overwhelming majority” https://www.quora.com/Why-are-interfaith-marriages-illegal-in-Israel     

    #132473
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Thanks Robin. I had a look at all of the Quora thread. it is chilling reading.https://www.quora.com/Why-are-interfaith-marriages-illegal-in-IsraelIt seems they have allowed too much power to pass onto the religious sectors. Just as the Irsh did with the Catholic Church with education and so on, but in the Israeli case much of it was inherited from Ottoman times.I did not know any of this for sure, it was just a hunch. In my very early working life, I knew a lot of Jewish people and they had distinctions as to who were 'real' Jews based upon whether their mother was Jewish.I took much of it at the time as bigoted behaviours such as my experience inside my family as to who were real Catholics and who were 'widden' (wooden) Catholics, with some sadness too when my beloved grandmother wanted to know if my the girlfriend I proudly presented to her, was a 'green grape' (pape). Those experiences were kinda formative for  a 15-16 year old.(Her father had gone down with his stout walking stick behind his back to protected Emmanual Shinwell's dad's shop from an anti-Jewish mob too. She loved Oscar Wilde jeez what  a contradiction she was.)But realise now the racist (blood) undertones in the Jewish scenarios. They are just as inauthentic as the Nazis Aryan ones and the consequences of oppression of others just as real.

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