alanjjohnstone
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I refer you to this link that i posted on another thread on working and middle-class identitieshttps://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jun/29/most-brits-regard-themselves-as-working-class-survey-finds
The most prevalent cliché of post-referendum analysis has been that the vote for exit should be read as a "working-class revolt." Setting aside the unspoken assumption that this rebellious working class must by definition be white, the post-referendum exit polls actually indicate the "working-class" characterization of the Leave vote is inaccurate.It is true that a higher percentage of working-class voters voted for exit than did upper- and middle-class voters — 46 percent versus 64 percent. But once turnout by class was taken into account, the numbers looked different. As Ben Pritchett's calculations (along with his caveats about the turnout numbers including anomalies) have shown, the far greater turnout of the middle and upper classes, versus the working class — 90 percent versus 52 percent — meant that in absolute numbers, a far higher number of middle- and upper-class voters (around 10 million voters) actually voted to Leave the EU than the working class (approximately 7 million voters), many others of whom abstained from voting.http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/36651-after-brexit-reckoning-with-britain-s-racism-and-xenophobia
"Are you drawing a comparison between Corbyn and Hitler?"Not at all. Simply reinforcing the position we have that personalities and personal qualities are not what we are concerned about. We do not attack capitalists as individuals per se – we attack the system and their support for it as beneficiaries. Warren Buffet might have his heart in all the right places but it is his hand on his wallet that we draw attention to. The issue of criticising Corbyn stemming an earlier Standard cover featuring him (September 1915) has already been subject to debate on the forum. I have no desire for a re-run of how the Party should treat him. Regardless of how nice he is as a person, a subjective issue since i don't believe anybody on the forum knows him personally except perhaps in the passing, objectively he is a class enemy. Scargill and Tony Benn always graciously accepted a Standard on the occasions i gave them one but politeness goes with the course for political leaders.
If i was into conspiracy theories then i could suggest that this is all a convenient diversion by the Blairites to save Saint Anthony from any Corbyn war crime charges arising from the upcoming Chilcot Report which is released next week.
His following blog reveals Cockshott's de facto anti-immigration stance even more clearly despite his caveats which in practice is unenforceable, imhohttps://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2016/06/28/trades-unionism-and-migration/
Opinion polls put Scots supporting independence at 53%JP Morgan expects independence and new currency by 2019.http://www.scotsman.com/news/jp-morgan-expecting-scottish-independence-and-new-currency-1-4164909Some made the case for Remain in the EU on the basis of migrant rights – will they now support independence for Scotland for the same reason?But I do not recall any on the forum defending the 2014 Leave movement in the UK Union referendum although the SNP nationalists pledged a more liberal relaxed welcoming policy than the UK's to immigrants and migrants and encouraging the free movement of labour while offering Scottish passports to all residents in Scotland which was indeed a benefit to fellow workers particularly asylum seekers and refugees but also to those living and working here from England and elsewhere. What i am getting at is that there are always nuances to workers relationship with capitalism and the nation-state…our position has to be to put principles before immediate self-interest…As i have said i am not an economics expert so i would like others opinion on this article by Paul Cockshotthttps://paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/brexit-imigration-and-exploitation/
Quote:It is quite clear that in years when immigration is high, exploitation is high. The year with the lowest exploitation rate of 53p in the £ had 200,000 immigrants, the year with the highest exploitation, 89p in the £, had 589,000 immigrants. Overall the correlation between immigration and exploitation was 75%.So were UK workers in their own self-interest right to vote leave in a hope to exclude job competition?
It's the case – not the face…even when it comes to our opponents.I heard Hitler was great company at the dinner table and he was also kind to animals
Quote:Most members view "the interests of the working class" too narrowly.DJP, i think quite the opposite.Many members view working class interests very broadly i.e. globally and not euro-centrically and in a historic and social context that is long-term and not based upon short-termism. You may well be correct (and i think you are) that Brexit will result in a detrimental impact upon fellow-workers but it is not a permanent one. It is not an existential crisis for the workers' movement. If Marx is right that the State is the executive committee of the ruling class then the apocalyptic predictions for Brexit will be very much ameliorated and as been already posted, the back-tracking has begun. The class struggle goes on.Even though we may not have made the most of it, the EU referendum was an opportunity to explain our attitude towards nationalism, both British national sovereignty and Fortress Europe. Our case was neither London or Brussels (or Strasbourg or Frankfurt or wherever)
Yes, mea culpa, he has not officially endorsed Clinton.
Quote:Do you see a distinction between voting for her and endorsing her, or are they one and the same?SANDERS: No, they're not one and the same.I think he is playing politics to salve his conscience. Or, more likely, he is still engaged in the negotiations for what goes into the Democratic manifesto and his official endorsement is one of the cards he is holding. It is distinction without difference.
Quote:Asked if he would vote for Clinton in November, Sanders, a U.S. senator from Vermont, told MSNBC television: “Yes. The issue right here is I’m going to do everything I can to defeat Donald Trump.He opts for the lesser evil argument, even though in Vermont it is a comfortably safe seat for the Democrats where he could enjoy the luxury, as does Chomsky in Mass., to vote Green. Vermont is not a swing state so by saying he is voting Clinton, it is a de facto endorsement , imho.
Here are some of the people endorsing Clinton:* Max Boot – A hard-line war hawk and self-declared “American imperialist”* Eliot Cohen – Founding Signatory for the Project for the New American Century * Robert Kagan – A former Bush administration official who has been called “the most influential neocon in academe”* Richard Armitage – Former Deputy Secretary of State who admitted that he was the source who first revealed the identity of CIA officer Valerie Plame* Madeline Albright – Who said it was “worth it” in describing the 500,000 Iraqi children who died because of U.S. sanctions* Brent Scowcroft – National Security adviser to Bush #1* Henry Paulson – Former Treasury Secretary and key bailout architect* Leon Panetta – Former Director of the CIA* Dan Senor, a leading neoconservative operative and former foreign policy advisor to Mitt Romney, who declared, “Hillary is more hawkish than any of us!”This is just a partial list …. and now includes Bernie Sanders
Another article discussing the persistence of urban legends and conspiracies such as flat earthers and explaining the market-place for ideas. Well worth a readhttps://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jun/28/why-bad-ideas-refuse-die
Corbyn holds the moral high ground. Democratically elected some now wish to overthrow him in a palace coup. The supposed reason for Brexit was about a rebellion against the elite and those anti-Corbyn MPs are acting as the elite against popular wishes.Corbyn is right …he was elected by the membership and he can only be deposed by the membership in another election in which he would stand again against any challengers – something the rebel MPs have no wish to contest, expecting yet another defeat which would be even more damaging second-time around – vindicating and legitimising Corbyn even more, leaving the anti-Corbyn MPs no alternative but resign from Labour and no longer judge Corbyn's election as an aberration and blip. Whether Corbyn can win a general election, i'm not so sure. Can Benn or Watson or whoever can win a general election, i'm not so sure. Can the Tories win a general election i'm not so sure, Can UKIP win the general election i'm not so sure.Like Spain, i think we would be in some sort of political limbo…political purgatory …SNP will win in Scotland again, the 2nd Indy referendum will be on the table again. A maverick London independence party or pro-EU one may spring up and steal votes. One thing for sure, we'll be airing our old advert and won't have produced a new one…and we once more will be struggling to stand token candidates nationally.
The anarchist post-mortem. Lots of data to chew upon. http://libcom.org/news/making-sense-brexit-tide-reaction-reality-racist-vote-andrew-flood-27062016But its conclusions and solutions seriously wanting.Again from my own perceptive What we socialists fail to do is convey a positive vision of the future while the Leave nationalists communicated with their lies and misinformation a mythical rose-bed UK, where we took our country back and took control again….but real control was left in the hands of the same elite who are bein blamed for being out of touch with ordinary folk…as if there was a time they were ever a connection between the ruling class and the exploited and workers control was never raised as an alternative route.Where was the lead of the French protests being promoted and applauded but rather used as an indication of the decay of the EU. Why were not the UK unions mobilising education and publicity for fellow workers in Europe, proclaiming that we have to resist austerity and cuts?But i'm only whining about things beyond my individual influence as we all are on this thread and forum.The debate now for ourselves is how we as a socialist party, where i and yourselves do possess some sort of capacity to shape, and an organisation that is claiming to be class conscious workers are going to respond by looking at our message and our activities to try and punch above our weight in communicating and educating fellow workers. Let's get to work analysing where we are weak, endeavouring to remedy that, and also identifying our strengths, whatever they are.When fellow workers in their droves walk away from us, surely we should wonder if there is something about ourselves that does not have appeal …perhaps our after-shave…so we change our outward smell, but not our inner essence.
Can i suggest we get a sense of proportion on this issue.As been said by the party, it was mainly a difference of opinion within the ruling class and so far the only consequence has been for them . The stock market crashed briefly but bounced back to above where it stood at the beginning of the week. SOYMB posted on the effect upon the billionaires and we don't care about them.http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2016/06/brexit-and-deep-pockets.htmlMy exchange rate dropped about 3 baht to the pound. For me, the price of a few beers each visit to the ATM but for industry the fall in the pound is important and the spin being placed on it by Brexit does not impress. And Stuart, i doubt your good self predicted that it would be Jeremy Corbyn being stabbed in the back although we all expected the daggers to be drawn at every opportunity. Some of the threats are being back-tracked such as the shut-down of immigration. Despite Australia's points system, there was an increase in immigration and now Brexit say it was not a campaign to reduce the number of immigrants but about control which could mean increasing the flow The Lexit are the ones who should be regretting their role in bolstering the sovereignty and nationalist case. As i said on another forum, both the EU referendum and the Scottish referendum exposed just how insignificant we are when the working class are indeed engaged in a serious exchange of views and opinions.We have no voice at all in their conversations and no audience for our views. The only saving grace is that the left-wing are equally of no consequence. For all their talk of a Europe against austerity, it's all hot-air. Over the next months what we as a party should do is simply carry on drawing fellow workers attention to the politician's lies and betrayals and explaining the disillusionment and disappointment they now face. For myself, the priority is to address the question of our negligible political campaigning and if there is any possibility that when it comes to certain single issues that possess a class-wide importance, we can bend our hostility clause and co-operate and co-ordinate with those who we do not judge as class-enemies but may not agree 100% with so that we can amplify our voice and get some sort of hearing from fellow workers.
