Cameron’s EU deal

May 2024 Forums General discussion Cameron’s EU deal

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 266 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #84636
    ALB
    Keymaster

    As far as I can see, it's not going to make much difference even from a capitalist point of view. It's essentially an institutionalisation of the status quo as regards the relationship between euro and non-euro EU Member States and new EU legislation on child benefits for workers in one EU country whose children live in another (this will apply to migrant workers in Germany, etc as well as in Britain).

    And it doesn't erect any legal barriers to the free movement of workers, only some measures to make it less attractive to come to Britain (and even this is being countered by the move from tax credits to the so-called "living" wage which won't be affected). So it won't stop immigration if that's what was intended.

    No wonder the Eurosceptics don't think much of it.  As to us, why should we care? In or out, Britain will still be capitalist and, as it's capitalism that causes the problems wage and salary workers and their dependants have to face, these problems (housing, health care, transport, schooling, pollution, etc, etc) would continue even if Britain were to withdraw. The are caused by capitalism not by being in the EU.

    So the whole referendum is a huge irrelevancy and a waste of time. Still, I suppose we'll trudge to the polling stations and write "WORLD SOCIALISM" across the ballot paper. Or maybe going fishing that day.

    #117522
    jondwhite
    Participant

    According to Wikipedia the question will be'Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?'with the options reading'Remain a member of the European UnionLeave the European Union'Under this wording I think the only option is to abstain, never been a fan of spoiling the ballot as it seems a pointless futile gesture.The question was initially going to be''Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?'but possibly to avoid one group having the advantage of being able to make a positive campaign in favour of 'Yes' thought to be an advantage in Scotland it was changed.Had the question been'Should the United Kingdom leave the European Union?'I think a reasonable case could have been made that the SPGB position would have been to answer as I think the Scottish referendum question 'Should Scotland be an independent country?' could have been answered too'No, national sovereignty is a ruling-class myth so rearranging it (or leaving a trading bloc) can be of no possible advantage to workers.'

    #117523
    Anonymous
    Inactive

     Here's what our EU candidate had to sayhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4VON1Oab8M&list=PLfxPWuN7tZz3tksLE3Cun58cW-78b4km0 

    #117524
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    It seems one of the Tory bugbears was to defend the rights of the City of London, and maintain its almost tax haven status that the EU financial and banking proposals jeapardised  

    #117525
    ALB
    Keymaster

    So the day to go fishing is Thursday 23 June. If we take part in the campaign I think we should concentrate on attacking those calling themselves socialists who are on the Leave side, for encouraging nationalism. Saw George Galloway on TV last night addressing a meeting of UKippers and League of Empire Loyalist types and raising a laugh by starting "Comrades and Friends".

    #117526
    Bijou Drains
    Participant

    The main debate, in my opinion, is between National (relatively small capital) and multinational (relatively large capital). For those capitalists trading largely with the UK, the EU generates extra cost through regulation, etc. so they tend to be in favour of withdrawal. For Multinationals the EU provides a huge standardised market and they tend to be in favour of staying in. Historically big capital wins out against small capital, so expect huge propaganda in favour of staying in. In terms of the working class, the vote wont bring socialism closer, either way, so as a class we have no specific interest in the vote. I can envisage that some workers may feel they have an interest in staying in, for instance if your job is working for the EU, or if you are in a post funded through the ESF, similarly there may be those who think they may directly benefit from a withdrawal, Border Agency staff may envisage getting more overtime if we withdraw, but as a class we have no interest.

    #117527
    Bijou Drains
    Participant

    quote from another thread "I can live with those who, like Comrade Adam Buick, believe we have a duty to protect endangered life, such as wild animals, and are opposed to gratuitous cruelty,."With your talk of going fishing, is the mask starting to slip?

    #117528
    SocialistPunk
    Participant

    Does anyone have any info on who is actually funding the two campaigns? Can't seem to find info beyond the government using their propaganda machine and the likes of UKIP using EU money etc. There must be some capitalist  donations going in the pots?

    #117529
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    I don't think the EU referendum will provoke as much political engagement as the Scottish independence one where 85% turned out to vote , with a very high % of those registering to vote – 97%. I think most who witnessed the campaigning were surprised by how many became active and how many were keen to show their allegencies.  

    #117530

    Paul Mason makes an interesting point: it doesn't make much difference if UK stays oir goes, there is now a 2 speed Europe, and the Euro/Schengan countries will continue to integrate without Britrain.  It is in effect a complete waste of time and effort to vote at all in this farce, which is just a collosal distraction from real issues of poverty, housing and human needs.

    #117531
    ALB
    Keymaster

    I wonder whether, over this particularly vote, we shouldn't simply advocate abstention (ignoring) because the referendum is an irrelevant waste of time rather than our traditional practice of writing "WORLD SOCIALISM" across the ballot paper.

    #117532
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    What's the difference between abstention and ballot spoiling on this occasion from any other? If you wish to exoress the view  that a democratic process (and we have have to admit now that referenda are now part of the UK's democracy) there is no point in participating because it is "a waste of time", then why not go the whole way and say unless we have a chance of winning then voting in elections are a waste of time. In fact the anarchists calling for boycott  and non-participation is actually a more positive political action rather than suggest we ignore the whole thing entirely and encourage political apathy or at least tacitly endorse such.  So there are really 3 choices we can make. My option is to follow our usual course…advocate spoiling the ballot paper…And be out on the streets, being seen promoting it…Or do we not want to express our view on nationalism, patriotism, globalisation, migration of labour and all these important issues that will crop up in the denbate and require answering from a socialist perspective … I really have no wish to see a repetion of the invisibility of the Party during the Scots Referendum… Our position is to be "Neither British Isolationism Nor Fortress Europe but World Socialism"…hmmm…have to find another phrase for accurately describing the euro sceptics…i originally said "Little England" which resonated but a bit anti-Welsh-Irish-Scots…and re-edited….  If we are going to be busy and active during April/May why stop the momentum for June, and use the contacts/mailing lists in the London and Regional elections  we acquire to build upon. …a tall order and a demanding one…but whoever said our task was an easy one.  

    #117533
    DJP
    Participant
    ALB wrote:
    I wonder whether, over this particularly vote, we shouldn't simply advocate abstention (ignoring) because the referendum is an irrelevant waste of time rather than our traditional practice of writing "WORLD SOCIALISM" across the ballot paper.

    Vote spoiling is a waste of time in this instance, I'm inclined to think it actually is in all instances.If I do register to vote, my inclination would be to vote for. If I was a prisoner and there was a vote as to if I want a bigger cell or not I would vote for the bigger cell, even though really I do not want to be in prison at all….

    #117534
    SocialistPunk
    Participant

    DJP,I get your point, but if you suggest we participate in a capitalist issue, just for the sake of a "bigger cell" then I see no difference in socialists advocating and fighting to save the likes of the NHS. There's more at stake than just a "bigger cell", as without the NHS it is likely that many of us wouldn't be here today. Having Cystic Fibrosis, I know I would have been dead before I reached double figures.My inclination is to spoil my ballot should an EU referendum actually take place.

    #117535
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    "If I was a prisoner and there was a vote as to if I want a bigger cell or not I would vote for the bigger cell, even though really I do not want to be in prison at all."

    A variant of the lesser evilism…leads to all sorts of dilemmas, don't you think?…All manner of political accommodation…Sanders or Clinton? Trump or Sanders? Trump or Clinton? Where does it end?…Down the road to Chomsky's position, methinks …In the 2000, 2004, and 2008 presidential elections, Chomsky advised, "if it's a swing state, keep the worst guys out. If it's another state, do what you feel like." and " if I had been in a swing state I probably would have held my nose and voted for Obama. Just to keep out the alternative, which is worse. I had no expectations about him and I’m not in the least disillusioned. In fact I wrote about him before the primaries. I thought he was awful."But we have a soon upcoming conference where i think the subject should be raised …an emergency motion perhaps or item for discussion…Entirely ignoring a political decision-making event or actually suggesting taking sides in one has wider ramifications….i think the feel i got was some members reluctantly would have vote No in the Scot's referendum…and some equally as reluctantly voted Yes…But i think we got it right…any nationalism is a poison…Opting either pro or anti EU is still nationalism…You are right, DJP…it is maybe a bigger cell…but the prison walls is to keep people out, not in….maybe you prefer solitary to sharing your cell… 

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 266 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.