alanjjohnstone
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Quote:Why have you not yet acheived your object given that you have been around for a quite a while?
A fair question and we keep asking ourselves that very same question.I suppose the simple reposte is…Why has not The Zeitgeist Movement become more influential and have a greater impact? The main reason i think is that our audience is still dominated by the capitalist ideology which is entrenched by powerful tools such as the media, both factual and entertainment, by schools and colleges, by even many of the churches (how many refer to the Early Christian communism or Dhammic Buddhism, for instance). We are conditioned from birth, it appears.The Marxist view is the self-emancipation of people will arise through an increase in consciousness, spurred by the realities of the vicious class war and the contradictions of the capitalist system, combined by the growth and spread of socialist/RBE ideas to present the alternative societal structure to be aspired towards. We hold no Holy Grail in how the link of the very obvious tragedies surround us and the bleak future of environmental destruction with peoples increased understanding of the cause and the cure can be effectively made.We, like the TZM, can only do what we do, offering a solution which capitalist apologists cannot give.We both have also learned of NOT what to do and discovered the folly of imposing our ideas by minority force or by gradual increments in reforms. We can only caution those who return to failed strategies of the consequences of those past mistakes. This alone hinders our task in conveying our answer to capitalism. We have to keep re-stating what we are not instead of declaring what we are.Another thread informs us of the death of the Marxist theorist, István Mészáros, who added a caveat to the well-known dictum …" socialism or barbarism…if we are lucky."
A brief SOYMB blog post on the topic http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2017/10/catalonia-or-catalunya.html
The latest developments have been a fairly robust regional general strike purely on the democracy infringements by the State and its imported police.The Spanish king parroting the government's official line in a speech what has been described as another inept intervention that entrenched the separatists even deeper.Also, we have the Catalan president now threatening UDI within a matter of days.And this will have to bring forth some sort of EU/UN response, even though both say it is an internal matter for the Spanish to work out.The situation is escalating. And i have no idea where it will lead…But hopefully not to another bloody civil warAnd just to bring matters a bit closer to home, SNP's Nicola Sturgeon several months ago was also talking about a unilateral referendum on independence before back-pedaling so it could have been a very much similar situation facing us. But wiser minds prevailed.
Quote:BBC wrote:Catalan officials later said 90% of those who voted backed independence in Sunday's vote. The turnout was 42.3%.That's only 38% of the electorate.But we have to add to this the nearly three-quarter a million votes stolen by the police and assume that the vast majority of those were separatist. Which means over 52% were in favour. (i'm trusting Libcom arithmetic)…Not overwhelming a majority but neither was the No vote in the Scottish referendum despite the claims that it was decisive…
Quote:I have to take it from comments here and on facebook that most SPGB members do not support the Catalonian workers right to vote. Or the have no sympathy at all for them.Vin, i'm not on Facebook so i cannot comment on those but i don't see any such criticism that we do not support the Catalans right to express their political view in the referendum and denounce the Central government's repressive measures to halt the referendumI am right now restricted to Starfucks internet so i am reading posts hastily so i may have over-looked some…Perhaps you can give me the #messages of the posts that you feel have not defended the democratic rights of workers to demonstrate their political opinion, regardless of whether we agree with them or not. i have submitted a Material World article for next month's SS on the topic which i hope meets with the approval of the editors. It will be a belated observation but better late than never.
I think all we need to do is substitute Corbyn for Sanders and we see that there are parallels – the hopes and aspirations of a class that has been resoundingly defeated in the past perhaps having itself revived and perhaps fighting again…
As been pointed out…our position is to defend democracy as a tool to establish socialism. No doubt there will be socialists who are engaging in the stoppages of work taking place to condemn the actions of the police and of the central government – who claim they are acting at the behest of the Supreme Court which said Barcelona regional government had to authority to call the referendum.The Party is well capable of holding two views on the referendum…protecting the freedom of expression and the right of workers to be heard no matter what they are saying and positioning ourselves as we did in the Scottish Referendum . Rajoy could have sat back and won the referendum by default.Vin, i'm in the middle of writing a Material World article focused on Catalan nationalism so if the SS editors approve, it may clear up a few things on where we stand.Our interests are the interests of the working class world-wide. As already been made clear – defending bourgeois freedoms is part of that…advocating a new nation-state is not. Unlike what they said about Gerald Ford, Party members can chew gum and walk at the same time.
Quote:A thought occurred to me – why not contact Andrew to get a clarification and maybe to make a comment or two on this forum. Does anyone have his contat details?I have it in my contacts, not sure if they are up to date thoughakliman@xxxxxxAndrew_Kliman@xxxxx**IM Alan for details. Admin **
LBird. i'm not going to enter into any long exchange since i'm off the grid right now and sitting in a Starfucks at 2 quid a cup of tea.But i think Tim answered for me and you really shouldn't read into messages what you want to read. I think its called confirmation bias.Lee Harvey Oswald quickly learned that the Soviet Union was not socialism and that there existed an elite in control that used the pretence of workers' democracy as a cover. We see it in our own trade unions…The accusations against the Trots of making union meeting so fucking boring no-one attends and therefore they get what they want passed is well documented.I think we can have TOO MUCH democracy and anyone who has been a member of the SPGB for any length of time will recognise what i mean.We implement decisions with the speed of a glacier. But i have to do other things right now while online.
As an after-thought, i think one of the most effective anti-war documentaries that never got its full coverage was one about …not the dead soldiers but the wounded. The modern miracles of medicine and the equally amazing capacity to move swiftly battle-front wounded to high-tech hospital facilities mean that those who one time were doomed to death because of injuries are living …but as paraplegics with permanent severe damage and with horrifying damage to mind and body. The documentary concentrated on those survivors. Wouldn't it be useful if the benefits anti-cuts concentrated on those destroyed by war now being further destroyed by losing their disabled benefits. Strike two birds with one stone
A must read, indeed and as true today as it was then
Quote:…the Press and politicians may talk of the “glory of war,” but the casualty stations tell the true tale. And when that wealthy newspaper owner writes about the wounded, let him tell the real truth, and not deceive the public with cruel lies, which help to lengthen the war and thus bring death and indescribable suffering to thousands. This is what we in the trenches think!I go away for a day and return to two threads that are meaningless to any neutral visitor. Number of angels dancing on the head of a pin comes to mind…I'll be basically offline for a week or so and will expect to return to screeds of messages after messages which in no way relate or resonate with any of my fellow-workers. If it is workers' democracy we want, then boring them stiff and so that they will not participate or get involved will be one method of keeping the elite in charge.I posted a link to Lee Harvey Oswald's stay in the Soviet Union which i doubt anybody really read and how workers were discouraged not by lack of consultation but the amount of it…after meeting every day and every week…many compulsory…Worker's democracy for me is all about creating a situation that will free me from work obligations and the slavery of giving my time to it. Why do you think we all look forward to retirement from itroll on robotics when decision-making itself itself is automated, self-monitoring and self-adjusting…and i can fully enjoy the fruits of machinery, by the beach with my pina colada…or a good malt in tree-covered, loch-speckled hills
I tell you what made that thread incredibly difficult to read was not off-topic remarks but the unnecessary repetition of previous posts and the moderator was as guilty as anybody else.Quoting previous messages is necessary but not verbatim. Lets excise superfluous extracts.
