Catalonian Referendum

May 2024 Forums General discussion Catalonian Referendum

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 41 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #129572
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    Vin wrote:
    It seems party members are showing no sympathy for  Catalonian workers who are being prevented from entering the ballot booth  by the Capitalist State bullies: Even though the SPGB supports them or should be supporting them.

    There are two separate but related issues here: 1) The Party obviously 'supports' the limited right of workers to vote in liberal bourgeois democracies which has been achieved as a result of rivalries within the owning class and pressure from the disenfranchised propertyless majority.However,2) The Party has very little 'sympathy' for those workers who continue to vote for the continuation of their enslavement; in the case of Catalonian workers their preference for one capitalist state over another in the mistaken belief that they, as workers, will somehow benefit.

    #129573
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    As been pointed out…our position is to defend democracy as a  tool to establish socialism. No doubt there will be socialists who are engaging in the stoppages of work taking place to condemn the actions of the police and of the central government – who claim they are acting at the behest of the Supreme Court which said Barcelona regional government had to authority to call the referendum.The Party is well capable of holding two views on the referendum…protecting the freedom of expression and the right of workers to be heard no matter what they are saying and positioning ourselves as we did in the Scottish Referendum . Rajoy could have sat back and won the referendum by default.Vin, i'm in the middle of  writing a Material World article focused on Catalan nationalism so if the SS editors approve, it may clear up a few things on where we stand.Our interests are the interests of the working class world-wide. As already been made clear – defending bourgeois freedoms is part of that…advocating a new nation-state is not. Unlike what they said about Gerald Ford, Party members can chew gum and walk at the same time.

    #129574
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Twisting things here; I don;t need anything "cleared up".Nor anything 'pointed out'  Your trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs. I know all about nationalism, UK elections are all about that but we support the ballot boxI support the UK workers right to vote and my sympathies would be with them if UK state bullies were beating them at the ballot stations.  I wouldnt say "Well they were going to to vote Labour anyway so good on the Pigs" I apply that same principle to all workers even though they don't vote for me.I have to take it from comments here and on facebook that most SPGB members do not support the Catalonian workers right to vote. Or the have no sympathy at all for them.  This is not the current position the Party.  Until Conference decisions are overturned.  

    #129575
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    gnome wrote:
    2) The Party has very little 'sympathy' for those workers who continue to vote for the continuation of their enslavement; in the case of Catalonian workers their preference for one capitalist state over another in the mistaken belief that they, as workers, will somehow benefit.

    This applies to ALL "democratic" elections until workers vote for socialism. The more important issue is the intervention of the state  preventing workers from voting. Our case is based on the ballot box regardless of what workers vote for. OR perhaps not? 

    #129576
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    I have to take it from comments here and on facebook that most SPGB members do not support the Catalonian workers right to vote. Or the have no sympathy at all for them.

       Vin, i'm not on Facebook so i cannot comment on those but i don't see any such criticism that we do not support the Catalans right to express their political view in the referendum and denounce the Central government's repressive measures to halt the referendumI am right now restricted to Starfucks internet so i am reading posts hastily so i may have over-looked some…Perhaps you can give me the #messages of the posts that you feel have not defended the democratic rights of workers to demonstrate their political opinion, regardless of whether we agree with them or not. i have submitted a Material World article for next month's SS on the topic which i hope meets with the approval of the editors. It will be a belated observation but better late than never.

    #129577
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    BBC wrote:Catalan officials later said 90% of those who voted backed independence in Sunday's vote. The turnout was 42.3%.That's only 38% of the electorate.

    But we have to add to this the nearly three-quarter a million votes stolen by the police and assume that the vast majority of those were separatist. Which means over 52% were in favour. (i'm trusting Libcom arithmetic)…Not overwhelming a majority but neither was the No vote in the Scottish referendum despite the claims that it was decisive… 

    #129578
    robbo203
    Participant

    I think the point needs to be made that while there are two separate issues of democratc rights (which socialists support) and Catalan nationalism (which socialists oppose along with Spanish, or any other, nationalism) , the situation on the ground is a lot more complex and confusing. Some of the anger that is boiling up agaist the government comes from people who are not really in support of independence but who are nevertheless incensed at the actions of the government in trying to prevent a democratic vote on the matter. The government's line is essentially that the referendum is unconsititutional and illegal (because the Spanish people as a whole need to vote on the matter not just the Catalans) which strikes me as a particularly weak argument.  Laws that are made can be unmade or amended; they are not set in concrete. This rigid attitude of theirs means there is no way to exorcise the devil of Catalonian nationalism. They have boxed theselves into a corner. Ironically had they cleared the way for a proper, Catalonia only, legal referendum on the question of Catalonian independence, there seems little doubt that they would have won and probably by a handsome margin.  The large number of Catalonian workers who did not vote or effectvely boycotted the referendum, did so becuase they could see no point in voting if the government refuses to recognise the result.  This section of the population would undoubtedly come out against independence if a legal and binding referendum was held. As it is, the cause of Catalan independence has been boosted because it makes the Catalan nationalists to be the upholders of democracy and their opponents, the promoters of repression. Some waverers on the issue of independence will no doubt now decide to throw in  their lot with the nationalists having seen the ugly face of the Spanish state in action And it could get uglier.  There are rumours on the social media of a troop train being sent from Madrid to restore law and order,  I dont know if this is fake news or not but it will add to the rising tensions.  Catalan nationalism doesnt really have a tradition of using military cum terroristic measures to advance its cause (unlike say, the Basque separatists  and ETA which has now been officially disarmed) , the only exception to this  being the tiny Terra Lliure group which operated between 1978 and 1995 and only managed to assessinate 1 individual.  But who is to say, some more viable military wing of Catalan nationalism might not emerge out of the frustration, even possibly a false flag operation ,  giving the government all the excuse it needs to clamp down on the pesky nationalists?

    #129579
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    The latest developments have been a fairly robust regional general strike purely on the democracy infringements by the State and its imported police.The Spanish king parroting the government's official line in a speech what has been described as another inept intervention that entrenched the separatists even deeper.Also, we have the Catalan president now threatening UDI within a matter of days.And this will have to bring forth some sort of EU/UN response, even though both say it is an internal matter for the Spanish to work out.The situation is escalating. And i have no idea where it will lead…But hopefully not to another bloody civil warAnd just to bring matters a bit closer to home, SNP's Nicola Sturgeon several months ago was also talking about a unilateral referendum on independence before back-pedaling so it could have been a very much similar situation facing us. But wiser minds prevailed.

    #129580
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster
    #129581
    moderator1
    Participant

    Interesting insight here:  https://lluisolle.quora.com/The-Catalonian-referendum-1-OctIt seems the so called referendum was not democratic.

    #129582
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    moderator1 wrote:
    It seems the so called referendum was not democratic.

    Yes, that's what the King of Spain said. on Sky News LOL but neither he nor Sky News are democratic. State bullies beating up people attempting to vote is definitely undemocratic and should be  opposed by socialists.How can the right to vote on an issue and express a preference be 'undemocratic'?By the way every single ballot box is seeking nationalist and sectional interests. It's a red herring to use it to attack Spanish workers and we shouldn; t do it. 

    #129583
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    alanjjohnstone wrote:

    Good post Alan, I think you are right to deal with the attack on the ballot box first.

    #129584

    To play evil's advocate a second. Imagine if in say, Alabama, a eferendum were called to restore Jim Crowe law, and a federal court ruled the referendum illegal, then police action to prevent the act of violence that was the referendum itself may be legitimate. If Sunderland City council called an independence referendum, then it's likely that the councillors could be surcharged, and a court order staying the referendum would mean that the vote could not go ahead. This is utterly fantastic, as it assumes that Mackems could learn to read.

    #129585
    Bijou Drains
    Participant
    Young Master Smeet wrote:
    If Sunderland City council called an independence referendum, then it's likely that the councillors could be surcharged, and a court order staying the referendum would mean that the vote could not go ahead. This is utterly fantastic, as it assumes that Mackems could learn to read.

    Hmmm one of the earliest books in the English Language was written by the Venerable Bede, who was a Mackem. Don't like to stick up for my red and white neighbours, but facts is facts!

    #129586

    The Spanish need to rad up what happened in ireland. This is not smart:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41523250

    Quote:
    The "sedition" hearing is taking place at the national criminal court in Madrid. The defendants are accused of failing to help Guardia Civil police tackle thousands of pro-independence protesters outside the Catalan Economy Department in Barcelona on 20 September.Along with commander Trapero, another Catalan police officer and two leading independence activists are also being questioned in Madrid.Leading newspaper El Pais says the accusation against the Mossos is extraordinary in post-Franco democratic Spain.The crime of sedition has been in every Spanish penal code since 1822 and carries a potential prison term of up to 15 years. It amounts to rebellion against state decisions or national security forces.

    The Catalan parliament plans to meet despite a court order banning it, they'll probably be arrested, and on to civil war, but lets hope not.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 41 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.