alanjjohnstone
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From friends' accounts the dirtiest players were either police or prison officers teams.
Quote:I would prefer an evening in the local with a few pints, some rum chasers a couple of meat pies and a game of darts. Each to their ownIn general, food production will be a social decision, not personal choice.Your beer will be from a local micro brewery, your rum locally made moonshine and your meat pies will be from some sort of slaughtered animal reared locally on a small-scale rather than produced on some industrialised livestock farm and then processed in a meat-processing factory. Of course, we are as socialists judgemental, Tim. It is an attribute we acquire as socialists, it comes with the territory…to look at society and be critical of it and propose improvements to it. Okay in capitalism that for you is acceptable but now you question its validity within socialist society, that people will not continue to be critical of our cultures and will not continue to advocate for it to adapt and evolve for the better. It is not a matter of return to primitivism and self-sufficiency. It is perhaps yourself who argue that in the sense capitalist hobbies and capitalist lifestyles will continue unchanged and peoples' attitudes and value systems and relationships will reflect much the same as it is in today's culture…which i agree with you…to some extent.
Quote:people in a socialist society should be free to do what they want to as long as it does not impact on the lives of others too much. Approval or disapproval is not an issue, nor would or should it be it be required.my emphasisAnd who will decide if it is too much except by public expressions of approval or disapproval and again the problem we face, how public opinion going to be determined. What will be the mechanisms for deciding and the organs for enforcement? When does freedom stop being a free-for-all?I have argued on these forums with racialists/nationalist 'anarchists' who say they will defend the libertarian right of supposedly homogenise communities to exclude people of other races. Maybe in little isolated townships in the mountains of Montana this will not impact upon people too much but what about if they chose to make neighbourhoods in our metropolises no-go areas for certain people and have a much bigger impact? Of course our answer is that in the long run the social conditions that breeds such things as racism will disappear and racists will disappear so such situations won't be a serious problem…as would such things as perhaps competitive and physical conflict sports and meat-eating be subject to social change. On my personal blog i have re-posted a bit of an article by anarchist footballers that you might like to readhttp://mailstrom.blogspot.com/2007/06/anarchist-football.htmlHere in Thailand there is a version of keepy-uppy. Acrobatic skills with a ball that you rarely see in football these days https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepak_takraw
Not sure why this was off-topic. The article i linked to did indeed question scientist's motivations in their analyses and studies of hunter-gatherer societies…that they had ideological reasons for their findings and we should be suspect of certain claims… If LBird wished to remind the thread of his previous assertions supporting his earlier observations i see nothing wrong with that.If he then went on with other posts to de-rail the thread then that is a different situation. To presume he would do because of past record is akin to giving a dog a bad name and pre-judging a contributor. …i'd rather wait til the person commits a crime before we chose to read someone's mind and read into intentions…As his comment was addressed to me , i noted it but was not prepared to enter debate about it because i was only providing some information for others. and not seeking an exchange since i am busy elsewhere on the forum
And i also wonder about the future of golf. The land and water greedy sport may well disappear as the social cost of it is addressed, particularly in many semi-arid drought-prone countries.stopOr where the demand for land for building houses or factories is high…This "green-belt" really does housing developments.
I have always considered tattooing to be a form of self-harm rather than an art-form, YMS, particular when performed on visible parts of the body. Are we arguing ,Tim, that socialist society will approve of binge-drinking, bad diets, licientiousness and lewdness, outdoor pursuits without training. Or will they be considered social problems where society will try collectively to minimalise the detrimental effect it has upon communities. How? Peer-group pressure, perhaps. Do we approve of hill walkers who do not provide a timetable and itinerary? Maybe mountain rescue teams will refuse to offer assistance when recklessness is part of the cause. Will the RNLI decide idiots should be left at sea to flounder? Suicide is a voluntary act, shall we not try to mitigate it with various interventions but fully permit in certain cases voluntary euthanasia. Will there be a socialist police …a morality police…vigilantes…Always gets the discussion going in the pub.Am i going to be banned from driving a car before i am peer-reviewed by an expert in some sort of efficiency test…(ok by the time socialism comes the driver-less car will be common-place…but what about a light aircraft?) Who is going to stop me from speeding and selfish parking?All very interesting but dare i say it…things will gradually evolve and fall into place…Boxing may change its rules or the fact that it is in the majority of cases it is disadvantaged young men who take it boxing to escape poverty or low esteem…and the participants grow less in number and dwindle into insignificance. Despite amateur boxing being encouraged in public schools and Oxbridge…Can anyone tell me the name of a prominent fighter who was already wealthy when entering the sport?
Quote:But how far does personal liberty go in socialism….Are we entitled to self-harm in the name of entertainment and sport? Yes, why not? It`s voluntary,Might not be relevant but a consensual sado-masochistic sex ring used this as a defence but they were still convicted. It has gone through the appeals up to European human rights court and voluntarily permitting someone to harm you was found to be illegal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM_and_the_law#United_KingdomWhich makes me wonder why the logic of the legal decisions is not extended to boxing. Assault charges has been used in football for blatant fouling that led to injury, hasn't it?Thai boxing was originally leather gloves around the hand coated in ground glass.But John Oswald, why is female boxing becoming more popular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_boxing
Matt, And there was me thinking it was because you be sitting in your y-fronts talking discussing Sense and Sensibility, fag in one hand, half-filled cup of coffee for ashtray.But as i write this the thought has occurred to me…what would be more inviting and receptive to discuss?…a theoretical book or a work of political fiction. I think it comes easier to us to recommend a novel rather than some factual book on economics or sociology so is it better to use one as the focus of discussions?
I'd rather not have kids have individualists in the ring knocking each other senseless as role models, no matter how much they dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee. The object is still the same, to deliberately inflict pain and damage upon the opponent. Rugby and football etc. do have the defence that they are co-operative team sports with a rule-book to make deliberate injury illegal, even if the 'professional' foul is often part of the game. Not sure if you are saying that boxers are more likely to be act criminally if they didn't have an outlet in the ring. If they are simply thugs at heart, Matt, surely fights to the death would reduce their numbers…Whatever happened to the proverbial gentleman pugilist?
Tyson Fury:
Quote:“I’m making money so I don’t really care. You are either loved or hated, it all equals pound coins in the bank. And I’m happy to play the pantomime villain as long as I get a big pay cheque with plenty of zeroes on it – happy days. After all a plastic belt with a bit of metal on isn’t going to make a lot, is it?” he said with a wry smile. “I’ve already got 15 at home. I just leave them in the corner of an office at home. I haven’t even hung them up.”http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/13/tyson-fury-rant-anthony-joshua-eddie-hearn
Quote:The death of João Carvalho plays out to the backdrop of an orchestra of screaming, excited fans, many of them children… the death of João Carvalho the line is crossed because the sport allows it. Ward cannot be blamed any more than the organisers, the promoters, the officials, Dublin city for permitting it to take place or the fans that pay to watch. Many sports combine risk with aggression that puts health at risk. It happens in rugby and horse racing, in the TT Races at the Isle of Man and in boxing. The decision of where to stop does not simply come down to what may or may not disturb some buttoned-up sensibilities but, given the intentions of the fighters and how they go about achieving their aim, where it should stop is when it becomes obviously, dangerously violent… There is no precedent in organised sport where punching a defenceless opponent nine times on the ground when he has collapsed but is conscious is acceptable. It is crossing the line…The athleticism and health of the fighters, their flexibility and stamina as exemplified by the face of MMA, Conor McGregor, who was supporting Ward, doesn’t make it any less savage or safe. The money and notoriety of McGregor, the business that supports it or its popularity, especially among young people, is no defence. Perhaps that is the attraction, the lack of veneer. Real people. Real fighters. Real blood. Real hurt. The real McCoy of fighting. The children and teenagers in the National Stadium on Saturday saw their man Ward win. In time they will come to understand that what they witnessed was a legal killing.http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/13/mma-popularity-no-defence-for-legal-killing
Another article that discusses UBIhttp://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/13/should-we-scrap-benefits-and-pay-everyone-100-a-week-whether-they-work-or-not
Quote:‘Inventing the Future’ authors, Alex Williams and Nick Srnicek, will be appearing at this year’s Glastonbury. “Demand full automation, demand universal basic income, demand the future.” This tangled history contains a few warnings about different political conceptions of the UBI idea. “The right tends to see it as a replacement for the welfare state,” says Snircek. “Basically, in their conception, UBI is a way to do away with benefits and marketise everything. And, obviously, that has to be warded off completely.” He says he also has concerns about interpretations of the idea from some parts of the political left. “UBI has to be universal: it has to apply to everybody,” he says. “It’s problematic for some people that it includes the rich as well, but universal benefits have a political power that means-tested benefits don’t. It has to be unconditional. It can’t be means-tested. Everybody gets it, no matter what. “The other aspect is, it should be as a high as possible. It can’t just be some middling level, like the Green party was proposing at the last election.” Their idea, he explains, was to pay everyone around £72 a week, roughly the same level as Jobseekers’ Allowance. “That would help people, but they would still have to go out and find a 40-hour job to survive, so it doesn’t do any of the political things that are so important.”Just how close is the ideal to our own of from each according to ability, to each according to needs? How can we relate and convey our aim to the UBI goal? Is one possiblist and the other impossiblist?
Perhaps we can cite the ruthlessness of football success by how the Chelsea doctor Eva Carneiro was treated when she went on field to treat an injured player even when summoned to do so by the referee. Victory at all cost. As for playing regularly into your forties, Tim, can i ask how many operations you have had on your knees and if you personally haven't, how many of your team-mates you know, did have ? So what about the social cost of some sports? How much health resources should be devoted to it
Quote:Even if the majority disapprove, is it their right to stop the sport freely enjoyed by others if it harms no one but the participants?. A nursing friend told me once that A/E was full of patients on the Sunday from the games played on the Saturday…hyped up and boozed up after the game the extent of their injuries didn't come apparent until after they sobered up and woke up next dayDoes the participants also mean the tribalism of the fans?Shall we bring back bare-knuckle boxing? What about duelling? Gladiatorial combat? Why have rules banning drug enhancement performance?Or move towards society that places values on aspects of other sports and pastimes. Where i live one of the most popular televisised events is volleyball – non-contact ball game. This is one of those pub discussions that makes interesting debate but will never be resolved in advance. Sport is too often used as a substitute for many other expressions of people's behaviors and reactions within society that only after a decade or few of socialism will it be sorted out. It isn't just too much money, but too much need and demand for status and self-esteem. Is it scoring a goal or the adulation of the fans? Has anybody ever watched speed chess? As the final seconds tick away, there is nothing as exciting as watching the players andrenaline in action.
I stand corrected dodging punches does get points Three ringside judges score bouts based on four factors: Clean punching: “Clean” punches are punches that land on the face/side of the head and the front/side of the torso.Effective aggressiveness: A boxer demonstrates this trait when he consistently and successfully moves forward in a controlled manner.Ring generalship: The judges favor the fighter who controls the pace and style of the bout.**Defense: Boxers that skillfully incorporate defensive maneuvers receive credit in this area.**http://boxing.isport.com/boxing-guides/how-the-pro-boxing-scoring-system-works
Another article in the Guardianon Nuit Debouthttp://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/12/ive-never-felt-so-involved-in-democracy-nuit-debout-protesters-france-belgium-on-their-causeComments by different participants‘We want a society built on something else than just profit and money-making’‘I finally felt like my voice could be heard and something really significant could be done not just for one group of oppressed people but for all of them at the same time. It’s called la convergence des luttes (the meeting point of struggles).’‘Now anything could happen… the challenge is to maintain and build on the momentum by working with other social movements’‘The movement is extremely young, and at the moment many people are discovering themselves as active participants in a large group for the very first time. As the movement continues, talents will be discovered and I think that the frustrations most people generally feel will be much better channeled into a more concrete and stable political and social movement.’‘The event had many different “commissions” about varied topics like housing, education, universal benefit, pay and feminism. These consisted of people getting on their soapbox and saying stuff that everyone already believed: effectively preaching to the choir. ..The style of the commissions didn’t let people respond to what was said because everyone had to get in line to speak by putting up their hand and then waiting until it was their turn. After the commissions were finished there was then an assemble générale in which each commission told everyone what was decided. In fact, this turned out to be just a place to talk about the organisation of the Nuit debout and complain about stuff. Throughout the whole assembly hardly any policies or thoughts linked to the ideas of the movement were expressed, so it was a bit disappointing.’‘Nuit debout seemed primarily in response to the new labour laws, which to me are unacceptable. But the debates and discussions are going much further. It is now about everything that goes wrong with societies, in France but also of course everywhere. It is about profit domination and its consequences, and about irresponsible exploitation of Earth’s natural and human resources… It’s a beginning, but it really seems to be a determined one.’As it suggested in earlier posts, this is all about activists on a learning curve who realise they don't have all the answers by have plenty of questions. So i think it is important to try face-to-face conversations and gauge the importance or not of this movement and one way to meet people is to have a lit stall under our banner and distribute leaflets that address the issues that are at the forefront of their minds.
Quote:Boxing is not about hitting the other fighter, it's about not getting hit, or keeping going if you have been hit. It's about amazing fitness, muscle toning and thinking.If this is true then why is the points system by the judges based on the delivery of punches. KOs are the ultimate decider of the victor, rendering your opponent unconscious or unable to protect himself and that is brain injury.Thai Muay boxing is interesting…most being mostly limited to 3 rounds and less often 5, ending before attrition takes its toll. WWF wrestling shows the popularity of contact sports can be transformed into popular entertainment without people being hurt except when a staged rehearsed movement goes wrong.Your mention of judo (and karate and others i add) shows it is not the athletism that is primary attraction – look at the audience figures- although these are tough sports but neither has the spectacle of bruising and blood and bludgeoning that is reserved for boxing and cage-fighting. Rules are in place to minimalise physical damage and to enhance skills and so for audiences, turned them into rather dull affairs. Avoiding getting hit may be a skill but it receives no reward in points awarded by the judges. The aggressive fighter is at an advantage to a defensive boxer. As for fitness, the main pastime in jail is muscle-building (and the increasing drug problem is steroids). I think 4 horse died on Grand National Week at Aintreehttp://www.horsedeathwatch.com/I think we do have a problem with the adrenaline addiction that risk taking has. But i think, as you say, when the mercenary pecuniary interests are removed from sports, things will sort themselves out in a more natural way. And the only concern will then be if it puts other lives (human or animal) in danger
"During a confrontation between males, one would go over to a child, and pick it up."Perhaps another proverbial example of contesting politicians kissing babies in election campaigns?
When one of the instigators refuses to be interviewed about it, disclaiming a role of leader or even spokes-person what can journalists do but either investigate further…and spend valuable time doing so…which i am sure their editors aren't going to approve of or make a superficial analysis based on their experience of conventional politics and lefty sects. We have made comparisons with Occupy but there are some to be made about how centring upon personalities a la Russell Brand, it is much easier to de-legitimise and pull down a movement. For sure their demands will be mostly made up of the radical left reformism but they have discovered the downside of any formal organisation as had Occupy. I imagine France have even more Leftists rushing in to steer the protest to its advantage, But as DJP pointed out there is a disadvantage of no leaders when it is also accompanied by no formal structures to debate and direct the movement towards tangible…or at least towards goals that are definable As i said during Occupy we have over a hundred years of organisational skills to recommend as an example and we shouldn't be reluctant to share them. I said we could tailor-make leaflets for this protest and i am sure you are very capable of advancing a critique of the leadership principle in politics and suggesting various egalitarian models for decision making that doesn't exclude those unable to always be present physically at meetings and are the nucleus of an actual structured political movement that avoids the pitfalls of vanguardism which also makes all the participants responsible and accountable
