Blood sports?

July 2024 Forums General discussion Blood sports?

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  • #84700
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Maybe it is because i can't fight my way out of a wet paper bag that i have serious concerns about physical sports.

    The latest advice for school rugby is that it should be replaced by touch rugby 

    But more on the news is the case of Nick Blackwell being placed in hospital with a serious brain injury and it was touch and go if he survived 

    But less coverage is Joao Carvalho who died in hospital from the injuries he got in a Total Extreme Fightng event at the weekend. His opponent was Charlie 'The Hospital' Ward who might now consider changing his nickname now.

    As always the main defence is that a ban will simply drive the sport underground to join the unregulated bare-fist bouts that goes on. Chris Eubank Snr. has argued this. But could have the fight ended earlier ? According to the referee his decision to let it continue was because it was title fight i.e. lots of money was on its outcome 

    But we have many martial arts that provide safety equipment or are judged or have become non-contact. I'm a proponent of non-contact self-defence…running away …or the clever use of the silvery tongue. According to Desmond Morris another is to adopt the animal response…grovel …my sister who was an addiction nurse in a prison said her technique when faced with violence was to simply say, you do know you are frightening me, don't you?…and usually they didn't.

    Who permits battering the hell out of your opponent with big sticks as in Kendo without elaborate safety gear. However, we know from American football that helmets doesn't stop long-term brain damage.

    But how far does personal liberty go in socialism….Are we entitled to self-harm in the name of entertainment and sport? 

    #118912

    I always used to be against boxing, but I caught myself watching a fight in the pub.  Some poor fly weight was getting battered ever way but sunday.  What struick me was, he wasn't giving up.  He kept on going.  Boxing is not about hitting the other fighter, it's about not getting hit, or keeping going if you have been hit.  It's about amazing fitness, muscle toning and thinking, they used to call it The Sweet Science for a reason.The point is, as with all sports, the restrictions that are placed on the game (football would be easy without the off-side rule, for example).I'm not a fan of MMA, I just don't see anything admirable in kicking yiour opponent in the head on the floor (nor do I like knees and elbows being involved, as a former Judo player, I'm more ambivilant about strangles: there is an art).Obviously, in socialism, there'd be no money involved in sports, but you only have to look at the mad buggers who play hurling (for free) to realise there will always need to be some sort of outlet, for the pleasure, camaradery and pure bloody thrill of sport.  there's a huge risk in horse racing (even dressage), that can't be elminated.

    #118913
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    Boxing is not about hitting the other fighter, it's about not getting hit, or keeping going if you have been hit.  It's about amazing fitness, muscle toning and thinking.

    If this is true then why is the points system by the judges based on the delivery of punches. KOs are the ultimate decider of the victor, rendering your opponent unconscious or unable to protect himself and that is brain injury.Thai Muay boxing is interesting…most being mostly limited to 3 rounds and less often 5, ending before attrition takes its toll. WWF wrestling shows the popularity of contact sports can be transformed into popular entertainment without people being hurt except when a staged rehearsed movement goes wrong.Your mention of judo (and karate and others i add) shows it is not the athletism that is primary attraction – look at the audience figures- although these are tough sports but neither has the spectacle of bruising and blood and bludgeoning that is reserved for boxing and cage-fighting. Rules are in place to minimalise physical damage and to enhance skills and so for audiences, turned them into rather dull affairs.  Avoiding getting hit may be a skill but it receives no reward in points awarded by the judges. The aggressive fighter is at an advantage to a defensive boxer. As for fitness, the main pastime in jail is muscle-building (and the increasing drug problem is steroids). I think 4 horse died on Grand National Week at Aintreehttp://www.horsedeathwatch.com/I think we do have a problem with the adrenaline addiction that risk taking has. But i think, as you say, when the mercenary pecuniary interests are removed from sports, things will sort themselves out in a more natural way. And the only concern will then be if it puts other lives (human or animal) in danger 

    #118914

    Actually, Floyd Mayweather has built his whole career on not being hit.  Scoring punches landed is about when someone fails not to get hit.  It's not about the blood or violence, but about the determination and will.Judo and Karate lack the balletic fascination of boxing.

    #118915
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    I stand corrected dodging punches does get points Three ringside judges score bouts based on four factors: Clean punching: “Clean” punches are punches that land on the face/side of the head and the front/side of the torso.Effective aggressiveness: A boxer demonstrates this trait when he consistently and successfully moves forward in a controlled manner.Ring generalship: The judges favor the fighter who controls the pace and style of the bout.**Defense: Boxers that skillfully incorporate defensive maneuvers receive credit in this area.**http://boxing.isport.com/boxing-guides/how-the-pro-boxing-scoring-system-works

    #118916
    Bijou Drains
    Participant

    I played local non league football in the Newcastle and district leagues until I was well into my forties, I'm not sure about sport or entertainment, but self harm probably fits the description quite well. Given a chance I'd be there again in a heart beat. A socialism without sport is unthinkable to me. A sport without commercial presides sounds like my idea of heaven. Even if the majority disapprove, is it their right to stop the sport freely enjoyed by others if it harms no one but the participants?The thread reminded me of one of the most bizarre incidents that happened at a football match. We had just played and narrowly beaten one of the biggest bunch of nutters in our league and their captain put his head through the door and told us "someone" had just smashed up one of our cars. The look on his face when we told him that we'd all come on the bus! They'd smashed up their own goalies car!

    #118917
    SocialistPunk
    Participant
    Young Master Smeet wrote:
    I always used to be against boxing, but I caught myself watching a fight in the pub.  Some poor fly weight was getting battered ever way but sunday.  What struick me was, he wasn't giving up.  He kept on going.  Boxing is not about hitting the other fighter, it's about not getting hit, or keeping going if you have been hit.  It's about amazing fitness, muscle toning and thinking, they used to call it The Sweet Science for a reason.

    The greatest boxing hero that never existed, puts it a little better.

    Quote:
    "But it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward; how much you can take and keep moving forward."Rocky Balboa
    #118918
    ALB
    Keymaster

    Bring back Edith Summerskill (hope you're ancient enough to remember her):http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/others/inside-lines-in-the-blue-corner-is-leslie-the-mp-who-packs-a-punch-2299683.htmlThat was one reform within capitalism I always thought worth supporting but it's never going to hsppen (too much money involved in the "sport").

    #118919
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Perhaps we can cite the ruthlessness of football success by how the Chelsea doctor Eva Carneiro was treated when she went on field to treat an injured player even when summoned to do so by the referee. Victory at all cost. As for playing regularly into your forties, Tim, can i ask how many operations you have had on your knees and if you personally haven't, how many of your team-mates you know, did have ? So what about the social cost of some sports? How much health resources should be devoted to it

    Quote:
    Even if the majority disapprove, is it their right to stop the sport freely enjoyed by others if it harms no one but the participants?

    . A nursing friend told me once that A/E was full of patients on the Sunday from the games played on the Saturday…hyped up and boozed up after the game the extent of their injuries didn't come apparent until after they sobered up and woke up next dayDoes the participants also mean the tribalism of the fans?Shall we bring back bare-knuckle boxing? What about duelling? Gladiatorial combat? Why have rules banning drug enhancement performance?Or move towards society that places values on aspects of other sports and pastimes. Where i live one of the most popular televisised events is volleyball – non-contact ball game. This is one of those pub discussions that makes interesting debate but will never be resolved in advance. Sport is too often used as a substitute for many other expressions of people's behaviors and reactions within society that only after a decade or few of socialism will it be sorted out. It isn't just too much money, but too much need and demand for status and self-esteem. Is it scoring a goal or the adulation of the fans? Has anybody ever watched speed chess? As the final seconds tick away, there is nothing as exciting as watching the players andrenaline in action.

    #118920
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Tyson Fury: 

    Quote:
    “I’m making money so I don’t really care. You are either loved or hated, it all equals pound coins in the bank. And I’m happy to play the pantomime villain as long as I get a big pay cheque with plenty of zeroes on it – happy days. After all a plastic belt with a bit of metal on isn’t going to make a lot, is it?” he said with a wry smile. “I’ve already got 15 at home. I just leave them in the corner of an office at home. I haven’t even hung them up.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/13/tyson-fury-rant-anthony-joshua-eddie-hearn

    Quote:
    The death of João Carvalho plays out to the backdrop of an orchestra of screaming, excited fans, many of them children… the death of João Carvalho the line is crossed because the sport allows it. Ward cannot be blamed any more than the organisers, the promoters, the officials, Dublin city for permitting it to take place or the fans that pay to watch. Many sports combine risk with aggression that puts health at risk. It happens in rugby and horse racing, in the TT Races at the Isle of Man and in boxing. The decision of where to stop does not simply come down to what may or may not disturb some buttoned-up sensibilities but, given the intentions of the fighters and how they go about achieving their aim, where it should stop is when it becomes obviously, dangerously violent… There is no precedent in organised sport where punching a defenceless opponent nine times on the ground when he has collapsed but is conscious is acceptable. It is crossing the line…The athleticism and health of the fighters, their flexibility and stamina as exemplified by the face of MMA, Conor McGregor, who was supporting Ward, doesn’t make it any less savage or safe. The money and notoriety of McGregor, the business that supports it or its popularity, especially among young people, is no defence. Perhaps that is the attraction, the lack of veneer. Real people. Real fighters. Real blood. Real hurt. The real McCoy of fighting. The children and teenagers in the National Stadium on Saturday saw their man Ward win. In time they will come to understand that what they witnessed was a legal killing.

    http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/13/mma-popularity-no-defence-for-legal-killing

    #118921
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I don't know.I'd rather they punched each other senseless in a boxing ring than beat up someone in an underpass.

    #118922
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    I'd rather not have kids have individualists in the ring knocking each other senseless as role models, no matter how much they dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee. The object is still the same, to deliberately inflict pain and damage upon the opponent. Rugby and football etc. do have the defence that they are co-operative team sports with a rule-book to make deliberate injury illegal, even if the 'professional' foul is often part of the game. Not sure if you are saying that boxers are more likely to be act criminally if they didn't have an outlet in the ring. If they are simply thugs at heart, Matt, surely fights to the death would reduce their numbers…Whatever happened to the proverbial gentleman pugilist?

    #118923
    alanjjohnstone wrote:
    Has anybody ever watched speed chess? As the final seconds tick away, there is nothing as exciting as watching the players andrenaline in action.

    Better yet, Chess Boxing:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing

    #118924
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    alanjjohnstone wrote:
    But how far does personal liberty go in socialism….Are we entitled to self-harm in the name of entertainment and sport? 

    Yes, why not? It`s voluntary, unlike the use of nonhumans, who are unable to consent!

    #118925
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    You`re also forgetting the sexual thrill of boxing – the human version of the fertility/mating season fights among other animals prior to mating. There is no doubt that women love to see it – and those who say they don`t are denying it out of embarrassment.

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