Blood sports?
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In Javanese villages the men fight with fists, with sharp reeds attached to the knuckles to draw blood – and then pair off with the village females of mutual choice, who have been eagerly and lustfully watching.
"You`ve got to get a hard-on and then hold it."- Quote from a trainer to his fighters; source forgotten; maybe Angelo Dundee.See also Joyce Carol Oates, "On Boxing."
To take this away from those who want to do it – and that`s the key word, want (it`s voluntary!) would be an assault upon liberty and the sexual need, above all, of lustfully rampant males. How could socialism justify such tyranny? If boxing was compulsory, (as it is in Cuba) I would be against it!
Quote:But how far does personal liberty go in socialism….Are we entitled to self-harm in the name of entertainment and sport? Yes, why not? It`s voluntary,Might not be relevant but a consensual sado-masochistic sex ring used this as a defence but they were still convicted. It has gone through the appeals up to European human rights court and voluntarily permitting someone to harm you was found to be illegal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM_and_the_law#United_KingdomWhich makes me wonder why the logic of the legal decisions is not extended to boxing. Assault charges has been used in football for blatant fouling that led to injury, hasn't it?Thai boxing was originally leather gloves around the hand coated in ground glass.But John Oswald, why is female boxing becoming more popular. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_boxing
Actually, a lot of the debate in the spanner case revolved around a previous case involving boxing:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Spanner#Trial_and_conflicting_argumentshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Coney
alanjjohnstone wrote:As for playing regularly into your forties, Tim, can i ask how many operations you have had on your knees and if you personally haven't, how many of your team-mates you know, did have ? So what about the social cost of some sports? How much health resources should be devoted to itQuote:Even if the majority disapprove, is it their right to stop the sport freely enjoyed by others if it harms no one but the participants?. A nursing friend told me once that A/E was full of patients on the Sunday from the games played on the Saturday…hyped up and boozed up after the game the extent of their injuries didn't come apparent until after they sobered up and woke up next day
My knees are fine, despite the fact that I broke a leg on three occasions during my time playing football, perhaps it was the fact that I was lucky that the three broken legs were opponents legs not mine. To be fair, although I played the marority of games as a centre half, I was only ever booked once, and on the three occasions mentioned above each one was where an opponent was trying to "do" me.If we are going to use the social costs of sport to stop them taking place under socialism are we also going to do the same around alcohol, tobbacco, food consumption, unprotected sex, mountain climbing, canoeing, skin diving, etc. Is this ban goign to be imposed by the "Socialist Police" or are there just going to be disapproving looks from the enlightened.
There's no need to take it away from those who wish to continue to do it. They are welcome to kick the crap out of each other, but they could be forewarned that members of the medical profession may not be there to attend their injuries. Don't forget there is female boxing, but that may just be a way of women trying to "prove" themselves to be as good as men.
I have always considered tattooing to be a form of self-harm rather than an art-form, YMS, particular when performed on visible parts of the body. Are we arguing ,Tim, that socialist society will approve of binge-drinking, bad diets, licientiousness and lewdness, outdoor pursuits without training. Or will they be considered social problems where society will try collectively to minimalise the detrimental effect it has upon communities. How? Peer-group pressure, perhaps. Do we approve of hill walkers who do not provide a timetable and itinerary? Maybe mountain rescue teams will refuse to offer assistance when recklessness is part of the cause. Will the RNLI decide idiots should be left at sea to flounder? Suicide is a voluntary act, shall we not try to mitigate it with various interventions but fully permit in certain cases voluntary euthanasia. Will there be a socialist police …a morality police…vigilantes…Always gets the discussion going in the pub.Am i going to be banned from driving a car before i am peer-reviewed by an expert in some sort of efficiency test…(ok by the time socialism comes the driver-less car will be common-place…but what about a light aircraft?) Who is going to stop me from speeding and selfish parking?All very interesting but dare i say it…things will gradually evolve and fall into place…Boxing may change its rules or the fact that it is in the majority of cases it is disadvantaged young men who take it boxing to escape poverty or low esteem…and the participants grow less in number and dwindle into insignificance. Despite amateur boxing being encouraged in public schools and Oxbridge…Can anyone tell me the name of a prominent fighter who was already wealthy when entering the sport?
Tim Kilgallon wrote:If we are going to use the social costs of sport to stop them taking place under socialism are we also going to do the same around alcohol, tobbacco, food consumption, unprotected sex, mountain climbing, canoeing, skin diving, etc. Is this ban goign to be imposed by the "Socialist Police" or are there just going to be disapproving looks from the enlightened.People do, in fact, take notice of social disapproval. Many family members who wish to smoke now go outside of the house to do so.If people wish to go mountain climbing etc they had better make sure that there are rescue teams available to jump in when things go wrong. A sign like "WARNING – BEFORE ENGAGING IN DANGERIOUS ACTIVITIES PLEASE ENSURE THAT AN APPROPRIATE RESCUE TEAM IS AVAILABLE" might be useful. These dangerous activities don't take place in isolation. Apart from rescue teams, organisations like the police (not acting in an coercive manner on this occasion) are required to officiate in an attempt to determine what went wrong and what lessons may be learned.There seems to be a lot of knee-jerking going on on this subject. Socialism won't mean that people will be able to do just what they like, they will be expected to consider the social consequences of their actions.
Hi Rod,At present there are a number of rescue organisations around the world that rescue people who have engaged in potentialy risky activities, organised on a voluntary basis. I doubt that would change for the worse in socialism. In fact these rescue organisations are good examples of socialist style volunteering. People understanding that in order to create and sustain the kind of supportive society we humans thrive in, we have to pitch in and do stuff that is often unpleasant and dangerous.
SocialistPunk wrote:Hi Rod,At present there are a number of rescue organisations around the world that rescue people who have engaged in potentialy risky activities, organised on a voluntary basis. I doubt that would change for the worse in socialism. In fact these rescue organisations are good examples of socialist style volunteering. People understanding that in order to create and sustain the kind of supportive society we humans thrive in, we have to pitch in and do stuff that is often unpleasant and dangerous.I have a question that I ask people who take part in non-socially useful dangerous activities: "Would you be prepared to take part in dangerous activities which are socially useful, rather than showing off to your mum?" I never seem to get a straight answer.
And i also wonder about the future of golf. The land and water greedy sport may well disappear as the social cost of it is addressed, particularly in many semi-arid drought-prone countries.stopOr where the demand for land for building houses or factories is high…This "green-belt" really does housing developments.
alanjjohnstone wrote:I have always considered tattooing to be a form of self-harm rather than an art-form, YMS, particular when performed on visible parts of the body. Are we arguing ,Tim, that socialist society will approve of binge-drinking, bad diets, licientiousness and lewdness, outdoor pursuits without training. Or will they be considered social problems where society will try collectively to minimalise the detrimental effect it has upon communities. How? Peer-group pressure, perhaps. Do we approve of hill walkers who do not provide a timetable and itinerary? Maybe mountain rescue teams will refuse to offer assistance when recklessness is part of the cause. Will the RNLI decide idiots should be left at sea to flounder? Suicide is a voluntary act, shall we not try to mitigate it with various interventions but fully permit in certain cases voluntary euthanasia. Will there be a socialist police …a morality police…vigilantes…Always gets the discussion going in the pub.By saying that people will be free to play dangerous sports, get their faces tattooed eat bad diets, etc. etc does not mean that a socialist society approves of such things, nor does it mean it should disapprove. The point is that people in a socialist society should be free to do what they want to as long as it does not impact on the lives of others too much. Approval or disapproval is not an issue, nor would or should it be it be required.As to the medical profession's input, we regularly played against the Newcastle University Medic's team and the Royal victoria Infirmary team, I think their would be enough volunteers to deal with the exagerated medical problems presented by local football teams.I am always a bit suprised by the judgemental attitude (not saying any members in particular) of what I would describe as the "knit your own lentil stew" current in the socialist movement. I think in a Socialist societies those who want to spend their time in a mongolian yurt, eating braised tofu with mung bean salad, whilst listening to Fijian nose flute music, before an exctiing evening watching speed chess should be free to do so, personally I'd rather eat my own scrotum. I would prefer an evening in the local with a few pints, some rum chasers a couple of meat pies and a game of darts. Each to their own
From friends' accounts the dirtiest players were either police or prison officers teams.
Quote:I would prefer an evening in the local with a few pints, some rum chasers a couple of meat pies and a game of darts. Each to their ownIn general, food production will be a social decision, not personal choice.Your beer will be from a local micro brewery, your rum locally made moonshine and your meat pies will be from some sort of slaughtered animal reared locally on a small-scale rather than produced on some industrialised livestock farm and then processed in a meat-processing factory. Of course, we are as socialists judgemental, Tim. It is an attribute we acquire as socialists, it comes with the territory…to look at society and be critical of it and propose improvements to it. Okay in capitalism that for you is acceptable but now you question its validity within socialist society, that people will not continue to be critical of our cultures and will not continue to advocate for it to adapt and evolve for the better. It is not a matter of return to primitivism and self-sufficiency. It is perhaps yourself who argue that in the sense capitalist hobbies and capitalist lifestyles will continue unchanged and peoples' attitudes and value systems and relationships will reflect much the same as it is in today's culture…which i agree with you…to some extent.
Quote:people in a socialist society should be free to do what they want to as long as it does not impact on the lives of others too much. Approval or disapproval is not an issue, nor would or should it be it be required.my emphasisAnd who will decide if it is too much except by public expressions of approval or disapproval and again the problem we face, how public opinion going to be determined. What will be the mechanisms for deciding and the organs for enforcement? When does freedom stop being a free-for-all?I have argued on these forums with racialists/nationalist 'anarchists' who say they will defend the libertarian right of supposedly homogenise communities to exclude people of other races. Maybe in little isolated townships in the mountains of Montana this will not impact upon people too much but what about if they chose to make neighbourhoods in our metropolises no-go areas for certain people and have a much bigger impact? Of course our answer is that in the long run the social conditions that breeds such things as racism will disappear and racists will disappear so such situations won't be a serious problem…as would such things as perhaps competitive and physical conflict sports and meat-eating be subject to social change. On my personal blog i have re-posted a bit of an article by anarchist footballers that you might like to readhttp://mailstrom.blogspot.com/2007/06/anarchist-football.htmlHere in Thailand there is a version of keepy-uppy. Acrobatic skills with a ball that you rarely see in football these days https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepak_takraw
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