alanjjohnstone
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“Your favourite pope has understood this but what he proposes is not going to happen”
Yet again one of God’s main representatives on Earth does not make an appeal for divine intervention but calls for temporal solutions. Isn’t that a welcome change in thought?
We now don’t have a dispute over basics but disagreement only on application.
“…This calls for an integral human development that is based on the central role and initiative of the people in all their diversity, as well as on universal access” [to work, housing, land and food]…Our civilisation – so competitive, so individualistic, with its frenetic rhythms of production and consumption, its extravagant luxuries, its disproportionate profits for just a few – needs to downshift, take stock and renew itself…”
I’m always reminded of James Connolly, despite a reported death-bed conversion, when he pointed out that the Catholic Church out of expediency would forget its reactionary practices
“…the Catholic Church always accepts the established order, even if it has warred upon those who had striven to establish such order…the Church ‘does not put all her eggs in one basket’ and the man who imagines that in the supreme hour of the proletarian struggle for victory the Church will definitely line up with the forces of capitalism, and pledge her very existence as a Church upon the hazardous chance of the capitalists winning, simply does not understand the first thing about the policy of the Church…When that day comes the Papal Encyclical against socialism will be conveniently forgotten by the Papal historians…”
As we also saw in Latin America liberation theology become popular for a period, as Marcos has mentioned in the past
Like it or not, we may possibly have church allies in the movement for socialism, not for the moral reasons as I think Robbo once suggested but for the more profane purpose of self-interest survival as Connolly said.
Again i have mentioned it previously, we shouldn’t underestimate the albeit declining influence of religion. Anybody in Edinburgh in 2005 during the Make Poverty History campaign will have seen how it mobilised many thousands of their congregation and opened up their churches in an impressive display of protest.
Contrast with the very vocal right-wing evangelicals in America whose voice has silenced much of the mainstream churches, but again there is the exception of those churches who are offering protection and sanctuary to the undocumented.
I think it is a sign of progress and social evolution that a plague has not resulted in a return to religion, that churches and synagogues and mosques have been closed down (yes there has been some hold-outs by some orthodox jewish communities, some TV preachers in the US, but even Mecca and the haji went into lockdown. Mohammed and Allah were obliged to submit to science and practice social distancing)
“…making the case for an end to lockdown because working class lives matter less than profit?“
And what should have been the attitude of socialists when notice of a lockdown is a mere four hours and there is the very minimum of State social security to substitute loss of earning and loss of livelihood, which sparked an exodus of migrant workers?
For whose benefit was the lockdown in various African, Central and South American countries?
And who is it demanding that the restrictions be relaxed.
Wasn’t it simply for the ruling class interests in the sense that they were isolating themselves from contagion and ignoring the death and suffering that would be the consequence of the lockdown and not from the virus. A matter of pulling up the drawbridge in their gated communities and sending in the police and army to keep the “unclean” in their slums and shanty-towns.
I think in many developing and undeveloped countries, the case for lockdown was that the local oligarchs lives were more important than working peoples lives – the profits and economic ramifications were secondary.
Should the socialist echo the self-interested survivalist approach of those in power?
However, it seems that lockdown is in fact being loosened, but I doubt they will be calculating the casualty rate of the collateral damage working people had inflicted upon themselves. Those deaths won’t be in the statistics.
“The policies of many states reflect a social Darwinism philosophy that prioritises the economic interests of the wealthiest while doing little for those who are hard at work providing essential services or unable to support themselves,”
While in most countries ant-vaxxers are actually being undermined by the demands for a vaccine, yet in the US it has brought a fresh impetus to the movement
But regard Gates and vaccines, it was 330,000 deaths caused by former South Africa’s former President Thabo Mbeki in HIV/AIDS denialism that was far costlier.
Another failed state.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52428998
Propped up by the UAE, separatists in southern Yemen have declared self-rule.
It appears it will be just like Somalia where we have the officially recognised nation but there exists independent nations of Somaliland and Puntland.
With the Yemen civil war unresolved with all factions supported by strong outside states, it seems that Yemen will not be.
Not perhaps hyper-inflation, Ozy, but according to some, definitely higher inflation
“Tim Congdon, chairman of the Institute of International Monetary Research (IIMR) at the University of Buckingham, warns: “The policy response to the coronavirus pandemic will be followed by an inflationary boom.” Specifically, he foresees a British inflation rate “closer to 10 percent than we have seen for many years”. The most recent figure for UK inflation is from March, when it was 1.5 percent.”
There is now a credible allegation of sexual assault against Dementia Joe…he has been accused by an ex-staff member of penetrating her with his finger.
New Evidence Supporting Credibility of Tara Reade’s Allegation Against Joe Biden Emerges
The pro-Democratic Party media such as CNN and MSNBC are purposefully either discrediting the accuser or brushing the story under the rug. Biden has had 10 different interviews, including with CNN anchors Anderson Cooper and Brooke Baldwin, MSNBC anchors Nicolle Wallace and Brian Williams, ABC News’ George Stephanopoulos, and NBC News’ Chuck Todd and not once been quizzed about the accusation.
And the prominent female liberals who supported the #MeToo movement are displaying an extraordinary example of double-standards
We can be sure this won’t be ignored by the Trump campaign
Nor will the money-making ventures particularly in China and the Ukraine of Hunter Biden be neglected.
What’s the bookie’s odds that Trump wina a second term? It increasingly looks like a sure bet
I was referring to the rich pampered and privileged in the developing and undeveloped countries where inequality is very stark, with clear divides ie few in a “middle-class”
I have previously on this thread linked to this story from Brazil
I also remember posting about a private country club for the Brasilian elite that became a coronavirus hotspot by ignoring social distancing.
In fact wasn’t Germany’s and Britain’s patient zero holiday-makers at an exclusive ski-resort in Italy, as was South Africa’s.
https://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/covid-19-south-africas-patient-zero-returns-home/
Not all patient zeros were Chinese coming from Wuhan after visiting family although many were, and America’s was.
Is it populism to point out that the rich and the wealthy are able to survive lockdowns in comfort and can advocate for such a policy without suffering economically.
But my main point is that lockdown and social distancing may be an effective strategy for some nations but for others it is impractical and could well be a death sentence from other causes. Far fewer live in a multiple-roomed home much less possessing an actual garden, too. It is not a strategy that fits all. Following the scientific advice for Germany is not appreciating demographic differences in Nigeria – it is un-scientific because of the differing social structure. I think some have already referred to Sweden’s population make-up being a factor in how it is responding differently without a lockdown.
But another analysis, (albeit more anecdotal evidence I think)
My own experience is that a strict lockdown would have led to it being broken on a regular basis and as I have said in similar economies it is only being enforced by the use of coercion.
And aren’t you being a bit un-Marxist by using a 19thC term defining gig and uber workers as “petty-bourgeois” because they are legally and technically independent self-employed artisans and are protesting at the restrictions being imposed on their livelihoods.
Wouldn’t also most self-employed be described as sub-contractors ie those in the building trades for example, and not small shop-keepers.
Plus other sectors of the self-employed such as accountants and other professions are able to work online from home and no longer bound to an office desk. And we are told for those, it may become a permanent change in working conditions.
ALB, perhaps I over-egged the pudding but when we look at the global situation, of those developing and undeveloped countries, then I would stand by my claim that the privileged and pampered minority are imposing conditions upon the vast majority that are untenable and the divide is very much class-based. Those who can afford lockdown and the rest who simply aren’t able to pay the price that lockdowns demand and require near enough martial law conditions to enforce.
As pointed out by someone early in the debate, if it wasn’t for the direct effect upon the rich we wouldn’t have had improved water and sewage. In its earliest days it was the rich jet-set that brought the virus to their home nations and gave it to their servants and trades-folk. But once it spread and threatened others of the elite, they made the poor carry the consequences.
We should not forget either that there will very likely be a future price to pay, when food will be in short supply especially if countries rely as many do on imported food which the wealthy will continue to buy but working people won’t be able to pay for. As we witnessed several years back when the price of food rises, so do the people.
Italy’s lockdown is the strictest and longest in Europe.
Doctors say both things are creating a mental health emergency. Red Cross staff say they’re overwhelmed by calls from people struggling. Psychologists are warning that Italy is not equipped to deal with the crisis, and that the rest of Europe must prepare.
Rod says:
“world governments are basically fumbling around, but on the whole following the best scientific and medical advice available on this one specific issue (which makes a change) to try and do the least harm to capitalism as a whole while also having an eye to their re-election chances. They don’t want to be seen to be messing things up.”
Science is a bit complicated when it requires to be applied to everyday life especially when politicians are as you say looking over their shoulder at votes
From my previous link
Experts have voiced growing frustration over the UK government’s claim that it is “following the science”, saying the refrain is being used to abdicate responsibility for political decisions.
“As a scientist, I hope I never again hear the phrase ‘based on the best science and evidence’ spoken by a politician,” Prof Devi Sridhar, chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh, told the Guardian. “This phrase has become basically meaningless and used to explain anything and everything.”
Others expressed concern about the lack of transparency around the evidence affecting decision-making. “We don’t know who sits on Sage [the government’s scientific advisory group for emergencies], we see very little of the papers that go to Sage,” said Prof Sheila Bird, the former programme leader of the Medical Research Council’s biostatistics unit at the University of Cambridge. “That scientific underpinning is not evident.”
I do hold some sympathy for DaveB’s view on lockdowns.
It may be okay for suburbans in semi-detaches with gardens with occupations that can be adapted to home-working but what if you live in a high-rise flat and just had your income cut by 20%? Your budget doesn’t go to bulk buying.
For those around the world living in shanty-towns, ghettoes and slums, lockdowns appear only to be working only by the deployment of police and army. In Nigeria more have died from being shot by police for breaking imposed curfews than from coronavirus.
In Africa, Latin America and in Asia where many are in poverty, living cheek to jowl, who are more likely to have whole families sharing just one crowded room and different families sharing facilities, lockdown is simply not working as it should. They rely on a daily income and governments are failing to distribute adequate financial assistance. In India, many thousands have been penned up under conditions worse than a refugee camp. It is only a matter of time before many other infectious illnesses appear.
The link in my message #199669 shows that other expert opinion has cast doubt on the lockdown where the government is ignoring the detrimental effects of it…not just the economic impact but the psychological downside.
That as DaveB is suggesting the State is accepting for political convenience (rather than advantage) just one side of the scientific view and dismissing all others.
Lockdowns are class-based more than we are willing to admit. If I was ungenerous, I could say it is the “middle-class” protecting themselves from the great unwashed poor.
Alas, Dave, when it comes to the internet, the Party has closed the barn door after the horse has bolted.
How often have we heard individual members advocate a more interactive presence on the web, the use of streaming, for instance. It was never viewed as a priority because I think the technology scared us. Or at least the implications did.
I for one can be grateful for the Party’s financial assistance some years back in acquiring a new laptop when my old one became unrepairable at a time I was flat broke and could not continue any activity. So yes, the Party has always been able to help out members.
I also for one would like the cash to be doshed out about much more to help our companion parties. But these organisations must have a strategy on how to use the money.
I won’t criticise any individual members of the EC for failure to fulfil the undertakings of their membership of the committee. Circumstances can change. Also, it means turning our attention to all those who fail to attend branch meetings.
My own bug-bear is members who do possess the capability yet won’t even visit the Party’s social media, much less help out as Robin has been urging us to do for just 10 minutes a month.
We are a voluntary organisation and rely on all our members good-will.
I suppose the one exception being those regular almost perennial proposals to actually employ a paid Head Office organiser and then we could make bigger demands upon his or her remit.
But with this new development of Discord which will understandably take time to fully roll out and gain acceptance, it is a positive move that will benefit the Party in many various ways. I view it as another step closer to a one united world socialist party, but that is just me.
More than one in five New Yorkers may have already had the new coronavirus, a testing sample showed Thursday, suggesting infections are much higher than confirmed cases suggest.
Those would translate to roughly 2.6 million people state-wide and around 1.7 million people in the Big Apple as having already had the new coronavirus.
There are uncertainties about the accuracy of antibody tests and the sample was small. But Cuomo noted that, if the data played out across the state it would mean that the death rate for COVID-19 there was only 0.5 percent.
Scientists complain about the science. It seems as if experts are suffering the exact same problem as we have found – the unreliability and lack of access to actual facts.
Prof Mark Woolhouse, an infectious diseases epidemiologist at the University of Edinburgh, said modelling had had a disproportionate influence. “I do think scientific advice is driven far too much by epidemiology – and I’m an epidemiologist. “What we’re not talking about in the same formal, quantitative way are the economic costs, the social costs, the psychological costs of being under lockdown,” he said. “I understand that the government is being advised by economists, psychiatrists and others, but we’re not seeing what that science is telling them. I find that very puzzling.”
Woolhouse said that while it was understandable that saving lives was the top priority, the idea of doing this at any cost was naive. “With any disease there is a trade-off…”
“The government isn’t using expertise simply to validate claims, it also appears to be using it as an insurance policy,” Prof Christina Boswell, a political scientist at the University of Edinburgh, wrote this week. “If things go wrong – and the curve gets too steep – it will be the scientific advice that is to blame.”
