Jerusalem Again

July 2024 Forums General discussion Jerusalem Again

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 98 total)
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  • #217986

    Oh, I left off:
    1: During the cold war pan-Arabism was a thing,
    2: Arab states gave a lot of money to some UK left-wing organisations.
    3: Soviet policy.

    These will have lingering effects among the older leftwing circles.

    #217990
    ZJW
    Participant

    Young Master:

    Bauerism (as well as a voting system that might overcome the danger of ethno-majority tyranny) both came up in this thread: https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/topic/against-lesser-of-the-two-evils-ism-on-the-article-was-the-jewish-bund-anti-semitic/#post-132981

    #217996
    ALB
    Keymaster

    I wouldn’t normally listen to an-hour-and-a-half recording but that interview with Emmanuel Farjoun was fascinating and I listened to the end in one go.

    I hadn’t realised before how dependent on non-Jewish labour state of Israel was. Apparently most work that has no military significance is dominated by them not just construction but health, supermarkets, transport and other services (including even the prisons though these are run by Druze, a special minority, who also serve in the armed forces). And it’s not just cleaners but top managers; most doctors and hospital management are not Jews.

    Farjoun’s argument is that this puts the non-Jews in a strong position not just in Israel but in the “Greater Israel” that already exists de facto as a state. He sees the way forward as the 50% non-Jewish subjects of the state of “Greater Israel” bringing pressure to get equal civil rights with its Jewish subjects, and that this will have some success because their of economic importance.

    He is in effect saying that the non-Jews of Palestine (which includes Lesser Israel) should go for this rather than for an independent state; and this is what he expects will eventually happen however slowly as it’s what economic trends favour.

    He also pointed out that half the Jewish population are in a sense themselves Arabs in that they came from Arab countries where they were Arabs — and Arab-speakers — whose religion happened to be Judaism just as for others it happened to be Christianity. Farjoun points out that in Israel you can’t tell the difference between a Jew and an Arab as they both look and dress the same.

    #217997

    Yes, I managed to get a proper listen this morning, and it is heartening to hear a class analysis, which gets drowned out in so much of the noise about Israel/Palestine as abstract/total entities. I think the only thing missing was discussion of the Israeli Jewish working class’ conditions, because it’s not a bed of roses for them neither.

    #217998
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Jewish, Christians, and Muslims lived together in peace and harmony for more than 900 years, there are many Arabs and Africans who are proselytic jews.

    The news media never mention that there are many Catholics in Israel and in Palestine, and they never say that there are thousands of non-Jewish ( in the traditional sense ) that are working in Israel, and the Israel workers are a minority, and they have also contributed to the economic development of Israel.

    The left only mention the atrocities of the state of Isreal but they always forget that it is a nation composed of workers and capitalists and that many workers are from other Arabs nations, and they are suffering the same conditions as the Palestinians and other workers around the world, that is the problem of analyzing without a class view.

    The same situation takes place in Saudi Arabia where workers from other countries are living and working in that nation and many of them are from the Philippines and Koreans, and other Asian nations, and women from those countries are also suffering the same conditions as the Arabs women

    #218038
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    I was going to listen but saw the date of his article being 1983 which put me off since a lot of things have happened in the subsequent 40 years, the 1st Intifada and hundreds of thousands of foreign migrants and an underclass (if we can describe them as) of 40,000 African asylum-seekers now in the Israeli job market.

    Is the interview using data more up to date?

    I think the only thing missing was discussion of the Israeli Jewish working class’ conditions, because it’s not a bed of roses for them neither.

    Wasn’t it 2011 that saw mass protests by Jewish-Israelis about the cost of living and scarcity of affordable housing, taking a lesson from the Arab Spring?

    #218040
    james19
    Participant

    An addendum to my post above.

    Lots of likes for, Socialism replaces Capitalism. Socialism has killed no one.
    ALB…a great link
    Ajj, as you say, the debate on my travels is about who IDF kills? It’s “ok,” if it’s a “military” target, military personnel…..but not “ok” if it’s innocent men, women and children. YFS

    This is a particularly disturbing development.

    https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMeGCDVQh/

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by james19.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by james19.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by james19.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by james19.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by james19.
    #218044
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    James, our response in 1948 to the establishment of Israel

    Palestine and its Problems

    “…For the Arab and Jewish worker neither Arab nor Jewish national independence will remove the mark of subservience…”

    Another about the see-saw attitudes

    The Communists and Palestine

    #218062

    “Is the interview using data more up to date?”

    Yes, it brings the article up to date: the interview was this year.

    #218063
    ALB
    Keymaster

    And takes into account what has happened since. At one time Arab workers in Israel we’re just a reserve army of labour. But now he says, in the meantime they have become as an essential, integral part of the Israeli economy without which it would collapse. That’s the main point he brings out in the interview and why he concludes that it gives them some leverage to demand, with the prospect of some success eventually, full civil rights.

    Of course this won’t be easy as it would amount to the Zionists having to abandon their ideology of Judaisizing Palestine. But the Boers in South Africa thought they could rule for ever but in the end were undermined by the capitalist economy. Farjoun expects the Zionists to be too.

    You should listen to it.

    #218066
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Guardian has a useful article on the right of Palestinian refugees to return and how it can be accomplished. It reminds how the Russian Jewish migrants – a half million was integrated within 4 years.

    Even Hamas leaders considered it might be a generational issue to be solved but apparently studies show it needn’t be.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/may/18/a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return

    #218068
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Having listened i agree that it is a very insightful interview with important ramifications for a One-State.

    I would think the use of imported labour may mitigate the need for unskilled West Bank daily workers. Two Thais are in the recent death-toll from the missiles.

    I note again that more important than Hamas rockets are the continuing protests and strikes in Jerusalem and West Bank.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/18/clashes-in-jerusalem-and-west-bank-amid-protests-and-strikes

    #218094

    I always thought the right of return was the bargaining chip they would cash in for a final deal.

    ISTR the Russian immigrants were far from unproblematic.

    #218095
    james19
    Participant

    This….solidarity

    Italian port workers refuse to load shipment of arms headed for Israel

    Saw this and others a few times.
    https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMetAVrCx/
    Another

    https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMetAaDeH/

    Unfortunately, video at the top of page isn’t about the story, just bombings in Gaza.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-palestine-arms-livorno-port-italy-b1848773.html

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by james19.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by james19.
    #218105
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    The problem was partially that many weren’t Jewish under religious rules. i recall a story from years back that some Russian Israeli started a neo-nazi youth gang.

    But i don’t think the return of refugees will not have its problems.

    In lesser numbers were the assimilation of the Ethiopian Jews, the Falasha, which was even more culturally harder aside from the language problems facing the Russians and there are still problems of racism involved resulting in the sporadic protest.

    The question is are they unsurmountable problems or not? The point being that Israel has experience of large numbers of immigrants arriving and has a basic infrastructure to deal with such. Where’s there a will there is a way.

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