Jerusalem Again

July 2024 Forums General discussion Jerusalem Again

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 98 total)
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  • #217930
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    https://www.vox.com/world/2016/12/23/14071550/united-nations-vote-israeli-settlements-obama-trump

    Barrack Obama also took a stand against Israel at the UN. Most governments around the world do not have the courage to take a stand against Israel, if they do, they would be accused of antisemitism, it is an opportunist card that Israel and the Zionists have played for many years

    #217932
    ALB
    Keymaster

    You and me might agree that this would be a sensible strategy but it’s up to any socialists in the area to decide. In any event we can’t commit the Party to it. It might even be less difficult to get workers there to unite for socialism than for a secular democratic state (which would still be capitalist even if, politically, a vast improvement on current situation).

    #217933

    Pro-Israelis refer to the single state solution as ‘the destruction of Israel.’ There is a legitimate concern, Sri Lanka or India style that the majority population would dominate. That said, so long as states exist, the only solution is either a de jure single state with is de facto two states (Belgium style) or de jure two states which are de facto one state (EU style). Israel seems to be opting for a single state without any rights for the Palestineans. Which for me does suggest that a campaign for civic rights is the strongest.

    #217934

    Paul Rogers has a good account of the situation

    Israel is the most powerful state in the Middle East. Its military forces may not match the likes of Egypt or Turkey in numbers, but the might of its training, equipment, technologies and nuclear weapons make it unassailable. Given its long-developed capabilities in public order control, such a position should also apply to its control of radical dissent within its own borders, as well as in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

    […]

    On the surface, Israel still appears secure but for all its military power, this is far from true. It may seem impregnable but remains fundamentally insecure. Perhaps the current conflict will ease, possibly due to late pressure from Biden, but whether or not it does, the one key event of recent weeks is the incursion of the Israeli forces into al-Aqsa Mosque. That will have a far deeper and more longer-lasting effect than associates of Netanyahu realise.

    #217935
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    The practicalities of Greater Israel are i believe just as impossible as any of the other so-called “solutions” being implemented to bring peace. It is just a talking point, tbh.

    I don’t think the similarities with South African apartheid are 100%. There are crucial differences. World capitalism overall were generally against apartheid as an hinderance to their profits. I’m not sure Israel has that same significance to the capital class other than the domestic ruling class.

    I’m very happy to accept any proposal that i perceive will bring less conflict and more peace to alleviate the suffering being inflicted upon the innocent. It may be reformist but a dead worker will never become a socialist. I’m very sure of that.

    I have argued on-line that the justification of Hezbollah that Israel occupying a few sq. miles of Shebaa Farms cannot justify its existences as an army of “national liberation”. A few acres of land can easily be given up to bring the greater reward of peace. But it serves the political interests of Hezbollah to demand that small patch of territory is returned. (It actually belongs to Syria and to neither Israel or Lebanon)

    MS, i wouldn’t praise Obama too much for his Israel-Palestine policy.

    From the Israeli side:

    https://jacpac.org/story/12/02/21/president-obama-and-israel-september-2012

    From the Palestinian side

    https://oldwebsite.palestine-studies.org/jps/fulltext/207365

    An honourable mention should be made of Jimmy Carter, however, in his Camp David talks

    #217936

    I think the Austro-Marxist are supposed to have looked into similar questions. I’ve not found the direct material before, but this seems to be a key work by Otto Bauer

    Austria is to be transformed into a democratic federative state of
    nationalities.
    2. In place of the historical crown lands, nationally defined self-governing
    bodies are to be constituted whose legislation and administration is
    attended to by national chambers elected on the basis of universal,
    equal, and direct suffrage.
    3. All the self-governing territories of one and the same nation are together to constitute a nationally uniform association, that attends to
    its national affairs with complete autonomy.
    4. The national minorities within each self-governing territory are to be
    constituted as corporations under public law, which, with complete
    autonomy, provide for the education system of the national minority
    and which grant legal assistance to the members of their people in
    their dealings with the authorities and the courts

    And this statement:

    But at the same time, socialist society will also implement the international division of labor; it will thus also link the independent national polity to
    numerous international administrative communities that will ultimately become organs of the community of international law constituted as a corporation. It will thus gradually integrate the national polities as autonomous
    members into a great international polity of a new type. The unification of all
    of civilized humanity in the common task of mastering nature and the division of humanity into autonomous national polities that enjoy their own
    national cultural wealth and that consciously control the development of their
    national culture is the ultimate goal of the international Social Democratic
    movement.

    #217937
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    “The person who is responsible for this Intifada is Itamar Ben Gvir:” Israel’s police chief, Kobi Shabtai.

    According to Shabtai, the provocations of the ultra-zionist MP and his supporters have fanned the flames of Palestinian anger and provoked the violent clashes that shook Jerusalem last week.

    https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20210515-itamar-ben-gvir-the-ultra-nationalist-accused-of-stirring-up-violence-in-jerusalem

    #217938
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    The ICC response…no, not the International Criminal Court but the International Communist Current

    https://en.internationalism.org/content/17016/wars-and-pogroms-future-capitalism-offers-us

    #217950
    ALB
    Keymaster

    In Brussels they have instituted something akin to Otto Bauer’s proposal. Belgian citizens living there choose which language community they want to identify with (Dutch or French). They then have a vote for a community council which controls education and cultural activities such as theatres. So you have people in the same geographical area electing councils based not on geography but in language. It seems to work. I don’t see why it couldn’t continue into socialism.

    I think the old Ottoman Empire had something similar where it allowed different religious communities to run their internal affairs as long as they collectively paid taxes. Maybe if it had survived this would have solved the problem in Palestine. Mind you, I should be careful what I might be interpreted as wishing for, as that nutcase Erdogan may well have the ambition of reviving the Ottoman Empire.

    I think (but am not sure) that Israeli State identity cards identify its subjects into groups not just Jews and Arabs but Arabs into subgroups such as Muslims, Christians, Druze and Bedouin as well as non-Arab Muslims such as Circassians. This will have been inherited from Ottoman times. But as I said I’m not sure. Perhaps somebody knows.

    #217951
    J Surman
    Participant

    I recommend Jonathan Cook, long-time resident of Nazareth, again for his view from inside Palestine. He comments regularly on the situation and also points out the various biases shown by mainstream media (including the BBC) in the links he posts with his articles.

    Palestinians in Israel now face far-right mob violence backed by the state

    #217958
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    They are doing the same things that the right-wing Nazis mob did to the Jews in Germany

    #217982

    Not finished listening yet, but this podcast and the original essay it’s based on is interesting:

    https://cosmonautmag.com/2021/03/class-and-race-in-israel-palestine-with-emmanuel-farjoun/

    #217983
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    I’m going to ask something controversial.

    What is so special about the conflict between the Palestinians and Israel which makes it much more news-worthy than the many more tragic events that take elsewhere around the world, also often arising from religio-ethnic causes?

    Anyone who follows news from Africa will know that the number of deaths and casualties of innocent victims in Gaza is relatively low in comparison to the sustained atrocities in the Congo, for example.

    #217984
    ZJW
    Participant

    Glenn Greenwald: ‘AOC’s Attack on Yang’s Meaningless Israel Statement Shows Her Role: Protect Dem Leaders — Real power over U.S. policy toward Israel and Gaza rests with Biden, Harris, Pelosi, Schumer, Blinken — not Yang. But AOC’s function is to shield them from leftist anger.’:

    https://greenwald.substack.com/p/aocs-attack-on-yangs-meaningless

    #217985

    Alan, I’ve often wondered that, and some right-wing attack dogs use that point to claim anti-semitism motivates the interest. I think though:
    1: Muslim solidarity.
    2: The view that Israel is a colonial settler state.
    3: The geostrategic interests of the British and American ruling class.
    4: Anti-Zionist Jews in the Labour movement[*]
    5: The direct relationship between Israel and Western Powers means that activists here and in the US have a chance of actually effecting change.
    6: The historical involvement of Britain and the US.

    Are the basic reasons for prominence. For good or ill.

    ——–
    [*] Many years ago I was at a Labour party meeting where members identifying as Jewish viciously tore lumps out of each other over Israel. Essentially a family row, and I think part of the issue is that some Labour members feel they were entitled to join in in the same vein.

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