robbo203
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Talking of Starlight, the rainbow unicorn, lets not get carried with ridiculous fantasies. If it came to a conventional war NATO Imperialism would easily defeat Russian imperialism. Hell, the American capitalist regime has more than enough firepower on its own to defeat the Russian capitalist regime, never mind the combined power of its NATO partners – this regardless of whatever temporary difficulties it might have in supplying its proxy, Ukraine, with enough weapons to defeat the Russian military
But why are we even discussing this? There is nothing to be proud of about a country’s relative military prowess. Only a sick nationalist can glory in some capitalist regime’s ability to murder thousands of workers on the “other side”
“NATO deindustrialisation.”
While we are arguing the toss over which capitalist bloc has the greater manufacturing capacity to sustain the killing spree in Ukraine – NATO/Ukraine or Russia and its allies – the main point is being lost sight of
The Russian capitalist regime, because of its imperialist invasion of Ukraine, has triggered a war in which thousands of working-class lives have already been lost and unimaginable quantities of resources have been wasted – and for what? For some sordid capitalist struggle over whose strategic interests should prevail over some patch of land called “Ukraine”
Of course NATO and its proxy Ukraine are no less culpable. But anyone who imagines that “NATO deindustrialization” is not going to lead to NATO rearmament and stepped-up defense spending – and therefore yet more resources diverted away from schools, hospitals, and the like – is living in cloud cuckoo land
The stockpiles of weapons produced by the mass murder industries of both these capitalist blocs have been seriously depleted. But it strikes me as being almost obscene, not to say utterly irrelevant, talking about which bloc is better able to continue this stupid senseless capitalist conflict. It is completely missing the point – that whoever “wins” this war it is the workers of the world (and not just those residing in those arbitrary capitalist entities called “Russia” and “Ukraine”) who will have lost
Very useful video on the economic woes and impending crisis of Chinese capitalism
https://www.facebook.com/ColdFusionTV/videos/546950273464297
So much for TS’s claim that there is freedom of speech inside capitalist Russia. There is precious little to choose between this regime and the equally repugnant, repressive, and right-wing regime in Ukraine
“You’re liberals because you say you support workers but that’s the extent of your concern. You don’t actually do anything. In fact you oppose the only people who do try to build a workers’ state.”
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LOL TS. This is plumbing new depths of dumbness. Since when do liberals support the workers against capitalists? Since when do Liberals even acknowledge the existence of a class struggle?
You are no different from the liberals in that regard. Like the liberals, you endorse the nationalist myth that the workers and capitalists have a common interest in the guise of something called the national interest that supersedes and overrides class interests
As a bootlicking supporter of the capitalist warlord, Putin, you are the one supporting the idea that workers should lay their lives on the line in support of Russian capitalism. Laughably, you rebuke us socialists for opposing what you say is the “only people who do try to build a workers’ state”.”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
That really made my day! Imagine that? An economic parasite like Putin and his super-rich cronies intent on building a, erm, “workers’ state”. You live in cloud cuckoo land, TS You truly have completely lost the plot
“Lol, except you aren’t socialists you are liberals LARPing as socialists.”
LOL Truly Stupid surpasses himself in his own stupidity. “Liberals”, as I understand it, uniformly support one side and one capitalist warlord in this sordid capitalist conflict against the other side. Socialists don’t. As supporters of capitalism, liberals have an awful lot in common with a rabid anti-socialist and supporter of Russian capitalism like TS – Putin’s bootlicker on this forum
Socialists, by contrast, take a class-based view on the matter and state loudly and clearly for all to hear: A plague on both your houses! To hell with Zelensky and Putin. To hell with both these capitalist regimes. Not a single drop of working-class blood is worth spilling in support of either side
I guess we should take these figures with a pinch of salt just as we should take pro-Russian figures with a pinch of salt along with the musings of wackos like Scott Rider et al. Both sides have a vested interest in distorting the truth.
Whatever the true death toll is it represents working-class lives wasted in supporting one capitalist warlord against another
Anyway here’s what the Kyiv Independent has to say…
“General Staff: Russia has lost 87,900 troops in Ukraine since Feb. 24…
Ukraine’s General Staff reported on Nov. 28 that Russia had also lost 2,908 tanks, 5,861 armored fighting vehicles, 4,416 vehicles and fuel tanks,1,899 artillery systems, 395 multiple launch rocket systems, 209 air defense systems, 278 airplanes, 261 helicopters, 1,555 drones, and 16 boats”
“Freedom of speech is alive and well in Russia. He is as free as he likes to be wrong. No gulag, no assassination. Fancy that.”
_______________________________the legal death of free speech in Russia
https://www.ejiltalk.org/the-legal-death-of-free-speech-in-russia/
“What lobotomised MSM consumers don’t understand about Russia vs NATO.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nato-war-with-russia_b_59381db9e4b0b13f2c65e892”
____________________________Another demonstrably dumb analysis provided by TS’s favoured wacko fantasist, Scott Ritter
For example, here’s Ritter wittering on in these terms:
“After evaluating Russian capabilities in the aftermath of the Cold War, American intelligence determined that the notion of American qualitative superiority was a myth; had there been a war in Europe, the tanks of the then-Soviet Army would have been nearly impervious to the weapons then available to NATO and American forces”
Meanwhile back in the real world, here’s what is happening to Russian tanks in Ukraine
“1,450 tanks
And it’s a staggering figure as well. According to the Dutch warfare research group Oryx, Russia has lost 1,450 tanks since the war began, nearly 900 of which have been damaged or destroyed. The rest were abandoned by the Russians, and many of those ultimately have since been captured by the Ukrainians.Nov 10, 20221400 Russian tanks have been lost to Ukraine – Grid Newshttps://www.grid.news › story › global › 2022/11/10 ›.
“And that’s the problem All-in, your sources are shit. Garbage in garbage out.”
hahahahaha
Says the person who relies on such trashy sources as Scott Ritter declaring NATO “has no military capacity”, how it is pathetic, how it is a paper tiger and how “Europe’s economy is collapsing
You have completely lost all credibility TS
Imbecilic nationalism on the rampage again – this time, not in Ukraine, but on the streets of Tenerife where tribalistic English and Welsh fans brawled over the prospect of a bunch of millionaires kicking around an inflated ball in a faraway place called Qatar. Jeezus. Talk about people needing to get a life!
“like the deluded musings of a wacko like Scott Ritter”
Not sure that’s a legitimate or justifiable description of Ritter.
———————————-Based on the comments made by Ritter in that ridiculous video TS presented to purportedly show that NATO was a “paper tiger” etc, it is an entirely justified description of the man. Anyone who seriously imagines that NATO is not a major – in fact THE major military force -in the world is seriously deluded. The military power of the US alone speaks for itself – let alone the military power of all the other constituent member states of NATO
“I’ve explained why you’re wrong and I’ve supported my claims with copious evidence. I will be ignoring you from now on. ”
That’s right TS, leave the battlefield of debate after you have been comprehensively trounced. I am not surprised. The quality of the evidence you have relied upon – like the deluded musings of a wacko like Scott Ritter – has let you down badly and this after you had the nerve to pour scorn on the various sources I and others here have used to refute your arguments
I am convinced that the longer this stupid senseless war goes on between these rival gangs of capitalist warlords, the more will workers come to see that the only sensible position to take is a complete and principled opposition to both sides. The SPGB and others who take this line will be proven right in the end – just wait and see. Nationalism is a mental disease and murder and mayhem are its most obvious symptoms
“If the invasion never would have happened if Minsk
2 had been implemented, how was it “imperialist”?”This has already been explained to you multiple times, knucklehead. The problem is you evidently haven’t got a clue as to what is meant by imperialism. Even in the very limited and narrow sense of the term as military conquest (which by no means exhausts the full meaning of the term ), Russia is clearly an imperialist state. How else do you describe its new territorial acquisitions? How else do you account for Russian forces encroaching on Ukrainian territory right up to the outskirts of Kyiv itself? Of course, NATO is a force for imperialism too. You don’t need to lecture us on the imperialistic intent of that body. But so is Russia. As a virulent anti-socialist, you are simply siding with one bunch of capitalist warlords against another and that makes you incapable of seeing what they both have in common
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“Russia is winning decisively. Amateurs talk tactics, pros talk logistics. You don’t see the forest for the trees because you’re the living embodiment of the Dunning-Krueger effect”
Here we go again – more stupidities from Mr Truly Stupid himself. I love the way he wraps himself up in an air of smug impregnable superiority as if he knows the slightest thing that he is waffling on about. The hell you do, TS. Run along and play your silly war games in your little sandbox, kid. You havent got a clue what you are talking about. “Pros talk logistics” my arse! One of the great defects of the Russian military has been precisely their poor logistics which have been hammered by the Ukrainian military.
It is a complete abuse of the English tongue to describe the recent Russian military retreat on multiple fronts as a case of Russia “winning military decisively”. Kherson is the only regional capital the Russian military was able to capture thus far and now they have lost that too. Hardly a stunning victory! They have been forced back to the positions they now hold and the likelihood is that this is where they will now remain if they are not pushed back further
Of course, it is conceivable that by “Russia winning decisively” you mean only in the very limited sense that they have largely captured the Donbas and held on to Crimea. That may be the case but I think most people would understand by the expression “winning decisively”, the military defeat of Ukraine, and its complete surrender to Russian forces. That is not happening is it?
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“NATO is not deindustrialising?Hahahahahahahahahahaha!”
Did you even read this article you linked to? How does it support your contention that the manufacturing capacity among NATO states to produce armaments has been degraded and is incapable of matching what the Russian military-industrial complex can produce?
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“If it came to a conventional war with NATO , Russia would be obliterated”
Child, you know nothing.”HAHAHAHAH
How amusing! Your evidence consists in a 48 second naff video of a complete nutjob called Scott Ritter sounding off about how NATO “has no military capacity”, how it is pathetic, how it is a paper tiger and how “Europe’s economy is collapsing” LOL (the guy is a yank and presumably doesn’t even live in Europe) blah blah blah. No wonder you come across as such a complete clown yourself TS if you are influenced by such trashy garbage as this. Though you deny it you have even used the same expression as that wacko- “Nato is a paper tiger”. If so why then is Russia so concerned about other countries like Ukraine or the Nordic states joining Russia? Its got nothing to fear from a paper tiger creeping right up to its border has it?
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“In terms of military spending”I’ve already addressed this issue. Andrei Martyanov, an actual expert, might be able to put it in terms even your tiny brain can understand.”
I couldn’t be arsed to listen to the entire video but listened to snippets and couldn’t find anything that contradicted my original statement that NATO spends vastly more on its military forces than Russia. Yes, America has military commitments abroad but even so its military budget is 11 times the size of Russia’s. But what about Europe? It doesn’t have much in the way of military commitments abroad but its military spending is 4 times greater than Russia’s. Its combined military personnel are twice the size of Russia’s and are much better equipped and trained. Judging by Russia’s pathetic performance in the Ukraine, NATO would rout the Russian army if it came to a conventional war. Only a deluded fool would think otherwise
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“NATO’s European fleets alone have almost four times the number of Russia’s surface warships”See above. Russia has hyper-sonic missiles. All those ships, sitting ducks.”
The US likewise has hypersonic missiles which simply means missiles that travel faster than the speed of sound. And if European fleets are sitting targets so too are Russian fleets and you don’t even need a hypersonic missile to destroy a Russian ship as we have already seen in this stupid pointless Ukrainian war
____________________________“But the behaviour of the Russian regime is very little different.” It too muzzles and even murders its opponents,”
No, it doesn’t.
“clamps down on free speech”
All states do. Name one country that doesn’t.
“and the right to protest”
The right to protest exists in Russia. People protest there all the time. You reading the Guardian again?!”This is interesting although a bit dated (2014) and the Russian system has become noticeably more authoritarian since then – particularly since the imperialist invasion of Ukraine with the Putin capitalist regime criminalising opposition to the war
also this
https://euvsdisinfo.eu/a-black-day-for-media-and-free-speech-in-russia/#
“Supporting a nation in its struggle against imperialism does not mean one gives unqualified support to the nation’s government. Even someone as dim as you can understand that, no?”
LOL Truly Stupid. You surpass yourself sometimes in the extreme lengths to which you are seemingly determined to display your stupidity. Russia’s imperialist invasion of Ukraine does not constitute a “struggle against imperialism”. It merely represents an instance of one imperialist bloc (Russia and its backers) locking horns with another – namely NATO.
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“I studiously avoid anything published by the Daily Express, for example, which is mostly just material for toilet paper and on a par with some of the sites you rely upon for many of your outlandish and frankly utterly dumb claims.”And yet you give no examples of such claims. Wonder why?”
I gave plenty of examples of your dumb utterances – like your silly claim that Russia is “decisively winning the war” when it has clearly retreated on several fronts. Or like your claim that Nato is demilitarizing and deindustrializing when the very opposite is the case. Thanks to Putin’s stupid blunder Nato member states are ramping up their military spending
If it came to a conventional war with NATO , Russia would be obliterated
“In terms of military spending, the United States and NATO are overwhelmingly superior to Russia. In 2021, Russia spent around $66 billion on its military. NATO’s European members alone spent more than four times that. The United States spent more than eleven times that much ($801 billion), though of course it has huge military commitments outside Europe. Moreover, European governments, including Germany, have promised steep increases in military spending, though the details are still far from clear.
NATO’s European fleets alone have almost four times the number of Russia’s surface warships, leaving aside the huge forces deployed by the United States with the Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean and the Second Fleet in the Atlantic. The assertion in NATO’s Strategic Concept that Russia can pose a serious threat to NATO in the Mediterranean appears unconvincing. Russia’s Mediterranean squadron usually consists of only three frigates and six Varshavyanka-class conventional submarines. The U.S. Sixth Fleet alone usually has around 40 warships, including an aircraft carrier and cruisers, backed not only by the other NATO navies, but also by their air forces…..
In terms of sheer numbers of troops and weapons, NATO’s European members plus the U.S. troops presently stationed in Europe have a considerable edge. In 2021, the active ground forces (not counting reserves) of NATO’s five main European members numbered more than 500,000 troops, compared to Russia’s 280,000; and most of the latter are currently pinned down in Ukraine (or in tens of thousands of cases, dead or wounded). The United States has six combat brigades stationed in Europe; far smaller than overall Russian forces, but enough to seriously stiffen European resistance”
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/07/14/the-real-military-balance-between-russia-and-nato/
You said and I quote:
“When one wants to be informed on military matters one turns to military experts. It just so happens many such people lean to the right. Simply being right wing does not disqualify one from having credible analysis of the conflict. ”
Well the above is what the military experts are actually saying and it’s hilarious you posing as some kind of expert in military strategy and confidently assuring us that NATO is some kind of paper tiger, a spent force that will implode in the face of Russian military might
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“I guess you mean about the Ukrainian and Russian governments being equally fascist even though one (the Ukrainian) came to power in a Nazi led coup, outlawed all opposition but far-right opposition, consolidated all media under its control, officially incorporated Nazi units into its military, allows Nazis to infest its police, military, intelligence and education, reveres a Nazi collaborator and declares him “father of the nation”, is ethno-nationalist, has death-squads roaming the country killing opponents of the regime, etc but the other (Russia’s) is/does none of these things? Is that what you mean you smooth brained, Koolaid drinking, tinfoil-hat wearing, credulous MSM consuming dupe?”
You make me chuckle at your colourful if amateurish attempt to argue via insult which is your usual mode of argumentation (I detest Kool-aid by the way so please delete reference to this from any future attempt of yours to insult). Of course, the Ukrainian regime is an authoritarian obnoxious right-wing regime and I don’t apologize for it in the least. But the behaviour of the Russian regime is very little different. It too muzzles and even murders its opponents, clamps down on free speech and the right to protest, and is virulently ethno-nationalist.
BTW I did not say Russia and Ukraine are “equally fascist”- learn how to read FFS! I specifically said I did not believe either of them are technically fascist – only authoritarian repressive right-wing regimes. You refer to the Maidan coup but conveniently overlooked that Zelensky like Putin was voted into power. Yes, there are self-identifying Nazis in Ukraine (a distinct minority) but the same is true of Russia. You don’t need to label yourself a Nazi in order to behave like one!!!
