Bijou Drains
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MBellemare wrote:No..this is a hate-group…you truly are haters. At least, most of you, minus alan and Steve San fran., the rest of you are closer to fascism and stalinism, you are a hate-group and hate differences. You see no value in different points of views. Everyone must conform to your myopic ideology. This is the literal definition of a hate-group, hence, why there are no women on here. I want no part of this any longer, this all male hate-group
Yet again you inflate your importance. Do you honestly think that members of the working class who have spent decades thinking about and working towards the development of Socialist ideas, with all of the social and personal sacrifices that involves, have the time and interest to “hate” you.At the risk of sounding like a teenager, get over yourself, sunshine.We are interested in developing and spreading Socialist ideas.You have put forward some ideas about economics which you have failed to back up with any form of reasoned argument.At the risk of disappointing you and your view of how important you are, I don’t give a toss about you on a personal level, yet alone have the time to hate you.Sadly however your ideas, which are a barrier to working class emancipation, need to be exposed as the blind alley they are.However to be fair, it appears from the limited interest in your half baked ideas, that the Working Class have been spared the trauma of your poorly developed concepts.
MBellemare wrote:Bijou, I've already answered your tariffs question, like, some ten posts ago. Its an arbitrary power-move, a might equals right, kinda thing, not much more than an attempt to over-power an opponent. To impose one's will on another, a power-network attempting to override another power-network.But how, if prices are purely arbitrary, does might equal right. If as you hold, prices are arbitrary, then tariffs would be pointless, how could you over power an opponent using tariffs. How would an aribitrary price increase over power anybody if it didn't mean anything. Overpowering implies that prices have power, but according to you, prices can be set any way you like, so they have no power.
MBellemare wrote:WHATEVER!!…. Anonymous Nobodies!, part of a non-existent, marginal, hate-group, which no-one reads or cares for! A Hate-group, full of hate, jealousy and bitterness, failures from A TO Z. After all, only failures and trolls conceal themselves behind Monikers.Ha ha haAnarchism, Now! Anarchism, Forever!As most people on here know, my name is Tim Kilgallon, I was so keen to conceal my identity I stood as a candidate for the SPGB at the European parliamentary election of 1989https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyne_and_Wear_(European_Parliament_constituency)I was so chicken shit, to use your phrase, a leaflet with my name and photo (not a pretty sight) was sent out to about 100,000 households in my home area I also was inerviewed several times by Local TV re the SPGB and our position.I do not claim this as any particular act of heroism, just to prove that I am not anonymous in my political views.Bijou Drains was the pseudo name used by Pete Townshend when he played bass on the classic hit "Something in the Air" by Thunderclap Newman, and to my mind the song has a bit of a link to the idea of a socialist revolution (a very small link, by the way).If your only argument against the SPGB position is that we are anonymous and hide our identities, you really are clutching at straws. All of our meetings are open to the public, you can read all of our EC minutes, branch minutes, you are welcome to visit our head office and read any material relating to the decisions and running of the party since 1904. No secrets, no skeletons in closets here, not even critical articles from Canadian newspapers!
Marcos wrote:MBellemare wrote:Most of you on this thread are FASCISTS, and truly ignorant, bitter morons, bemoaning the fact that you have amounted to absolutely nothing, or published anything of any value! I am please that like the chicken shits that you all are, I do not know your real names, arm-chair marxists. And I have answered all your queries…but you refuse to accept the answers. So from now on, every time you hear someone laughing, note that it is me laughing, laughing at a bunch of anonymous losers and spineless cowards, lost in the confines of 19th century failures.SPGB is the honorable term for fascism, a collection pool for idiots.Fuck YOu ALL!!!Anarchism, Now! Anarchism Forever!You are angry and frustrated because bullshitting did not work around here, and your PHD did not work around here either. There are peoples in this forum and in this party who are not arrogant and they also have an academic title, but they do not care about that. They know that universities only prepare the individuals to serve the ruling class as wage slaves with a higher level of education, There are too many peoples on the street with a PhD in Philosophy standing at the exit of the Freeway with a hat and a guitar collecting money to survive, and looking for foods at the religious centers, capitalism has affected their life There are lawyers and doctors who can not find a job, and they are two professions of prestige, they cannot pay their debts and can not have professional license, their family and personal life has fallen apartI know peoples with a high level of academic education who have become alcoholic because they are frustrated, this society has destroyed their life, but they do not understand the mechanism of this society, but I know others with less academic education who understand the operation of the capitalist society and they are optimistic.Being Marxist, or Anarchist, or whatever peoples call them is not important, it is just a name or a title, what is important is the class consciousness that each individual should have, the revolution should start in our minds by obtaining the proper principles to be able to see a better society. Like someone told me many years ago: Each generation does not work for itself, it works for the future generation, we all want to leave a better world for our children and grandchildren. I am 70 years old, well lived and I am not frustrated or living a bitter life.My first love is socialism and this small and tiny political party, we are small in size but we are big in political history, we can be wiped out like any other political group ( the Bolsheviks were bigger ) but we are leaving a legacy for the world working class, we are going to die, but we are going to leave a generation of young socialist, probably, you want a new world like us, but your approach is not helping you, you are young with a long road to travel, but you must learn how to hold the wheels, because you are going to crash all the time, as you have done right now, you blew it
Dear MarcosThe above reply is precisely why you should never restrict your contirbutions to one post a month. Salut Comrade
MBellend wrote:Most of you on this thread are FASCISTS, and truly ignorant, bitter morons, bemoaning the fact that you have amounted to absolutely nothing, or published anything of any value! I am please that like the chicken shits that you all are, I do not know your real names, arm-chair marxists. And I have answered all your queries…but you refuse to accept the answers. So from now on, every time you hear someone laughing, note that it is me laughing, laughing at a bunch of anonymous losers and spineless cowards, lost in the confines of 19th century failures.SPGB is the honorable term for fascism, a collection pool for idiots.Fuck YOu ALL!!!Anarchism, Now! Anarchism Forever!I know it's a long shot, but any chance of an answer to the question I asked you about why governments would set tariffs, if there was no relationshp between value and price?You see some readers might think that your little temper outbursts are a way of avoiding awkward questions, and as someone who firmly believes, as stated previously, that you are not an attention seeking self publisist, I would be love to see your response, as this would show emphatically that you are not a poseur who cannot be relied on to back up your arguments, but a serious theorist, a man of stern stuff, a real force to reckoned with.Come on, bonny lad, I know you've got it in you!
MBellemare wrote:Bijiou, you are a narrow-minded, conservative, out-of-date, block-head. The article you have read….is a slanderous one and is full of lies. It was orchestrated by those, who hate those that can make a living with their art and their writing. Nothing more can be said. The paper did print a retraction, months later. Bijiou, hiding behind a moniker, like a frightened little boy.I am so glad the paper printed a retraction, I couldn't believe that what the article implies would actually apply to you, i.e. that you are a attention seeking self publicist of very little talent. You would never have got that impression from the well thought out contributions you have made to this site. Funnily enough I have looked through the archive and cannot find the retraction you mentioned, be a sweetheart and post a link for me, I'm also surprised that they left the original article on line, you should have a word with them and get them to take the "slanderous(sic) article" off their site. If it is still up there people might get the impression that it is true, heaven forbid.p.s I'm still hoping you are going to explain how tariffs fit into your concept that prices can be set without reference to value.Anyway must sign off, pass on my regards to Alan, Wayne, Merill, Jay, Marie and of course not forgetting Little Jimmy, and keeping those "Crazy Horses" smoking up the sky.
MBellemare wrote:In my country, bijiou it is slander.You're not getting much right today, are you:https://www.cbabc.org/For-the-Public/Dial-A-Law/Scripts/Your-Rights/240 Slander covers the spoken word
MBellend wrote:Bijou….you are about as uneducated as they come, that is, the worst type of educated, i.e., a narrow-minded, conservative, type of educated. I suggest you get your head out of your ass, and actually read my work, before you slander. Its good that you hide your sorry ass behind a moniker, chicken shit! Because, its clear you are all yap yap yap and no action. Not even an original thought in vacant head.If I had defamed you, which I havent, it would be libel not slander, you really should be more exact in your terminology. As stated previously, I would like an answer to my question about tariffs, it seems to blow a huge whole in your whole argument.You could also tell me if you are the Donny Osmond lookalike featured in this article:https://www.pressreader.com/canada/ottawa-citizen/20111231/295931838219892 If so am I right to assume that this isn't a political discussion but is actually a piece of really shit performance art?
MBellend wrote:Bijou. ..posting links does not make you a reader… any marxist numb-skull can post a link. So once again Bijou why don't you excuse yourself from the conversation because it is beyond your vocabulary and limits of what you have read. Maybe try a Lenin thread… you can talk about how bolshevism is still relevant and not totalitarian. As for post-modernism I do like foucault and much of post-modern writings because they point-out the righteousness of marxism and capitalism, alike. BOTH ARE TOTALITARIAN NARRATIVES. The fact is marxism and bourgeois-capitalism are narratives, stories, …devoid of universal truth. Too Bad, its just the way reality appears to be. Without a multi-level, multi-lateral coalition, Marxism is dead as disco. And post-modernism is the only philosophy out-there that truly grasps what it means to have a true plurality. And that means that Marxism has to open itself to criticism and new theories such as structural-anarchism. No one wants a marxist dictatorship of the proletariat ever again…Marxism IS Old HAT! So I Read All Sorts Of PHILOSOPHY. Unlike You Bijou I Am Not Limited And Confined To The ONE-Dimensionality OF Marx. And I know my Marx, Inside And Out. So You Can Play SAMANTICS With Me And STRUCTURAL-Anarchism. But It Does Not Make Marx Any More Relevant Today But It Does Make Him Evermore Obsolete. History is proving this to be an accurate assessment. Narratives, Narratives Narratives, everywhere narratives. Anarchism, Now! ANARCHISM, FOREVER!You stated that I cannot have read your material because you have a web counter and you would know if I had, I then post you links to where I have read the guff that you have written and now you accuse me of not bothering to read it. You go on to you state that I would defend bolshevism as being relevant and non-totalitarian, it looks like it's YOU that has not been reading, my friend. You clearly have not read anything to do with theory and history of the SPGB. The SPGB has opposed bolshevism since 1917! We had our meetings broken up by the bolshevists in the 1920s and 30s.Also I'm glad that a man if your standing has been able to put such a reasoned and cogent argument together (sic). Interesting that you accuse others of being anti-democratic, elitist and against reasoned debate and then tell me to leave the thread as only those who reach the enlightened level of your good self should take part in it.Enough, however, of your puerile insults and attempts at proof by assertion. let's get back to the nub of your "theory", i.e. that prices are set at the whim of capitalists and that they do not relate to value. As I stated earlier in this thread, amongst other criticisms of position, if it is the case that prices can be set in the way you describe, why is Trump proposing tariffs to exclude Chines steel from being dumped on the US market?This is a twofold problem for your position. Firstly if prices could be set on a whim, US steel manufacturers could simply reduce the price of their steel to below that of the dumped Chinese steel and secondly if prices could be set on a whim the Chinese could simply absorb the tariff into the price of their steel so the tariff wouldn’t be a problem and neither side would go to the bother of putting them in place.I have been waiting for you to answer this for some time. As, as stated frequently, you have a PHD and as you clearly intellectually superior to the plebs in the SPGB, surely such a task should not have taken a man of your calibre as long to answer?Oh and by the way misspelling semantics is pure comedy gold, my hearty congratulations.As for disco being dead, looks like your wrong there as well;http://www.nilerodgers.com/events-listGet down and boogie, brother.
Marcos wrote:Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:@Marcos or/and onyone else interested.Marcos wrote:Economic exploitation takes place at the point of production, and added value is added at the point of production. There is no such thing as double exploitation, like one at the point of production, and another one at the point of saleI'll show you how to exploit at the point of sale. It's actually impossible not to exploit at the point of sale if the sale is made in capital dollars than it is a regressive price that systematically explioits poor people and systematically enriches rich people. Here's a simple thought experiment to show how. Consider this multiple choice price and profits voting survey as a numerical example of what I propose. Notice that in choices A-C, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. In price and profit choices D-F the level of explotation is much less don't you agree? Assume for help understanding the econmics of this that this is a monopoly market with only one seller and 3 purchasers and 3 bags of groceries. Imagine an economic thought experiment with only one grocer who has 3 bags of groceries all the same to sell to only 3 people. 1 person makes $10/hr, 1@$50/hr, and 1@$200/hr. In this thought experiment, the grocery basket is worth over 10 hours of effort in value to everyone equally. 10+ hours of value includes 1hr@120% quality time cooking6hr@100% consumption sustenance eating time3hr@150% enjoyment time dining or as a result after eating1hr@50% shopping effort time+0.5hr added to your life expectancyHow much should the seller charge for the Grocery Basket in a free market to make the most profit or/and offer the most customer benefit? A) “$100”- Sell the market basket at $100. Low income pricing1@$200/hr works 0.5 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 9.5 hours profit. 1@$50/hr works 2 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 8 hours profit.1@$10/hr works 10 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 0 hours profit.Sellers Profit = $300 = 1@$100 +1@$100 + 1@$100.Increase to inequality = 9.5 hours = (8hr – 0hr) + (9.5hr – 8hr)
“$500”- Sell the market basket at “$500”. Standard pricing1@$200/hr works 4 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 6 hours profit. 1@$50/hr works 10 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 0 hours profit.1@$10/hr works 50 hours to pay for the market basket and makes -40 hours profit.Sellers Profit = $1,000 = 1@$500 +1@$500 + 1@$0 (no sale).Increase to inequality = 46 hours = (6hr – 0hr) + (0hr – -40hr)C) “$2000”- Sell the market basket at “$2,000”. Luxury pricing1@$200/hr works 10 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 0 hours profit. 1@$50/hr works 40 hours to pay for the market basket and makes -30 hours profit.1@$10/hr works 200 hours to pay for the market basket and makes -190 hours profit.Sellers Profit = $2,000 = 1@$2,000 +1@$0 + 1@$0.Increase to inequality = 190 hours = (-190hr – -30hr) + (-30hr – 0hr)D) “10hr”- Reduce inequality to Zero by charging "10 hours of time” and make the most profit1@$200/hr works 10 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 0 hours profit. 1@$50/hr works 10 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 0 hours profit.1@$10/hr works 10 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 0 hours profit.Sellers Profit = $2,600 = 1@$2,000 +1@$500 + 1@$100.Increase to inequality = 0 hours = (0hr – 0hr) + (0hr – 0hr)E) “5hr”- Be generous and split the profit in half. Charge "5 hours of time” for the 10 hour value1@$200/hr works 5 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 5 hours profit. 1@$50/hr works 5 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 5 hours profit.1@$10/hr works 5 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 5 hours profit.Sellers Profit = $1,300 = 1@$1,000 +1@$250 + 1@$50.Increase to inequality = 0 hours = (5hr – 5hr) + (5hr – 5hr)F) “3hr”- Be altruistic and grow fastest. Charge "3 hours of time” for the 10 hour value1@$200/hr works 3 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 7 hours profit. 1@$50/hr works 3 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 7 hours profit.1@$10/hr works 3 hours to pay for the market basket and makes 7 hours profit.Sellers Profit = $780 = 1@$600 +1@$150 + 1@$30.Increase to inequality = 0 hours = (7hr – 7hr) + (7hr – 7hr)
Also, notice this thought experiments requires an unequal society with salary differentials into order to make a profit for the seller and to product inequality in options A-C. In options D-F it does not matter if the labor rate is unequal because the labor rate is adjusted for in the purchase price on a per person individual exchange rate between hours and dollars. and in an equal society where all people make the same hourly salary then there would be no additional exploitation. BUT we don't live in a capitalist society where everyone makes the same hourly rate, so there definitely is addiltional double exploitation at the point of sale. IMPORTANT! This is not the same as "labor chits" or other past experments because those all used an average hourly rate for everyone and a boss who made more money also would get more labor chits. By using "hours of your personal time" as a measure of value, you end up with everyone having exactly the same buying power in "hours of your personal time regardless of whether their labor rate is high or low in $/hr. This works different than labor chits. If you think this is like labor chips, then your are right that it's superficially similar, but you are wrong if you think the results at scale of this are the same as the results and failure modes demonstrated by labo chit experiments. P.s. This multiple choice question is one I'm asking a real capitalist COO of an online grocery delivery store business. I think the seller will be interested because of the higher profits in options D-F. I want to buy things using the prices in options D-F because I personally would save money on options D-F too. I think I'll be exploited less if I buy groceries with one of those D-F options. Which choice would you prefer A-F?1) I am limiting my post to one every month starting today. I don't want to over post
From my point of view I enjoy your posts and I think the idea that you might over post makes no sense to me. I woudl prefer to regularly read your posts as they are really good at putting the Socialist case. More power to your elbow!
Nice to think we've screwed up some Tory's day by putting a leaflet through their door, god knows the Tories have pissed me off enough with their bloody leaflets.Why not ask this supporter of capitalism if she's has the courage of her convictions and is willing to debate the SPGB in a public meeting?I would do it myself (send the tweet), but as a self confessed technophobe, I have no twitter account, and have no intention of getting one!!
For those who haven't read it, I thorougly recommend Alan's article.I have quite a bit of experience of professional involvement with Premiership football clubs and their academies and whilst the "big" clubs at the top of the pyramid do, in my experience operate very ethically with regard to who they sign, how they support them, which agents they deal with, etc. (would it be sceptical of me to think that this was possibly more to do with the financial implications of something going wrong?) the clubs playing below that level are less worried about how they operate.The thing that has always struck me is that despite the financial pressures, care, compassion and respect always emerges. Not from the upper echelons of the football club, but from those who support the youngsters who come into the clubs. The archetypal tea ladies who really care about the kids, coaches who at youth level aren't paid a great deal who will go the extra mile to help a youth footballer, support staff who seem to take get genuine joy from making sure clean strips are available. And quite often the youngsters are as much a part of this as the adults.I was working with a woman who was providing accommodation and care to two young 15 year old lads who were living away from home when the woman was diagnosed with cancer. The lads were told about this and about the alternative digs that had been arranged, but they refused to go, they supported the woman through her chemo, made her meals, did the housework, etc. To me the message that always comes through is that despite the conditions that capitalism throws down, the basic human instincts to cooperate with each other, to care about each other, to enjoy the success of each other cannot be suppressed, even in the most extreme manifestation of capitalism
MBellend wrote:1. Bijou…I highly doubt you have read anyrhing of mine.https://dissidentvoice.org/2017/02/the-post-industrial-post-modern-theory-of-value-and-surplus-value-2/https://dissidentvoice.org/2016/09/the-social-construction-of-value-price-and-wages/https://dissidentvoice.org/2017/11/the-post-modern-project-is-not-complete/ When you're in a hole, son, stop digging!
MBellemare wrote:Bijou, I know you have not read anything of mine in the last few months…because I have a tracker and no one from your country has read anything of mine. So why don't you stop and smell what you are shoveling.And what about your articles on the dissident voices website?A simple apology will suffice.
MBellemare wrote:BjiouI should qualify that the only thing of value, you say, which pushes the logical argument further. Is your idea about tarrif bijou. Give me some time to work that out, according to anarchist-economic-theory. But what you ask about, economic crisis, or companies going bust, I have already answered in prior posts. If you want more on the subject, more details. Go to Academia.edu…and you can read my papers FOR FREE.i have read several of your papers on line over the past few months and they show the same flawed logic of proof by assertion. I could eat alphabet soup and shit a more cogent argument.However I do look forward to your explanation of tariffs.
