Bijou Drains
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So in effect your point that the development of capitalism without the reformation (using the example of Spain, France, Italy) is wrong, because the post reformation Catholic church in these countries was not the same church?
“I just think mediaeval England had a lot of good about it that has been forever lost, and that the Tudor tyranny was responsible. If you want to consider that progress and well done, then it spites the common people of the time. If you think we lost nothing because the Middle Ages were dark, ignorant and pointless, and had nothing of value for us, then so be it.”
I don’t think many of us would deny that point, William Morris’ ongoing popularity within the party being but one manifestation of this. However Catholicism being better than Protestantism is a bit like saying standing in a barrel of shit is better than doing handstands in a barrel of shit, much better not to be in the shit at all.
Most of the advantages of pre reformation Catholicism came from the fact that very few people appear to have really believed in most of the bollocks the church talked about and society had corrupted (or in my view improved) most of the teachings of the church to be less moralistic and more practical (A quick scan throught the Canterbury Tales shows that)
“…for the socialist man the entire so-called history of the world is nothing but the creation of man through human labour, nothing but the emergence of nature for man…”
Surely Marx is describing the history of the world not the nature of that world.
You also fail to mention that your quote continues….
, nothing but the emergence of nature for man, so he has the visible, irrefutable proof of his birth through himself, of his genesis. Since the real existence of man and nature has become evident in practice, through sense experience,
My bolds not L Bird’s
“So very sorry you all had such rotten schooldays.”
I didn’t say I had a rotten time, that’s a judgement you made.
I had the time of my life.
I learned how to shoplift and play three card brag, dice and poker. I was drinking by the age of thirteen, I played endless games of football and only an ex catholic can truly appreciate the exquisite deliciousness of sin.
I was a catholic at 18 and a party member by the time I was 21, what sinful 3 years that was!!!!!
“I expect many here will have gone to a Roman Catholic school and been taught by nuns and Christian Brothers and so would not have been taught about Bloody Mary, Guy Fawkes and Mary Queen of Scots being baddies. I imagine they will have been pictured as heroes. Perhaps, anyone here who had a Catholic education imposed on them can confirm this.”
As a “recovering Catholic” my own experience of a 1960s-70s Catholic “Education” were as follows:
Junior school – Started in the just pre Vatican II era, Latin mass, once a week in school, marched off to benediction every Thursday afternoon (replaced by Stations of the Cross during Lent). Changed to the English mass in about ’66 I think.
Everything about school was religious, The local parish priest was in the school hovering around every day. Catechism for 45 mins every morning “Who made you”- “God made me”, “why did God make you” – “God made me, to know him, to love him, to serve him in this world and to be happy with him in the next” Collecting pennies to give to the “Black Babies”, if you collected a full sheet you got to choose the name the child was christened! So there’s probably 1/2 dozen poor fuckers in Africa in their mid 50s wondering how they ended up being called Wyn (Wyn Davies Newcastle Centre forward of the mid to late 60s).
Being coached for about 6 months for first communion and first confession (I had to make things up in confession, I’d never done anything, I was only bloody 7 years old), having the Spanish Inquisition every Monday morning for those who hadn’t been to mass (there were teachers stationed at each Mass so they knew who’d been and who hadn’t). You got the belt if you hadn’t.
In the small amount of time left for genuine education all texts had (approved by the diocese of Hexham and Newcastle) stamped on the inside cover, so what little history we were taught obviously met with the approval of the local Bishop.
Senior School – Things went from bad to worse. If you passed the 11+ and your family had a bit of brass you went to St Cuthbert’s (Alma Mater of Sting, Laurie McMenemy, Cardinal Basil Hume, Neil Tennant, Declan Donnelly, etc.) If passed the 11+ and your family were potless you went to St Mary’s (Alma Mater of several noted Tyneside’s notorious “families”, one of whom was recently exonerated at the Old Bailey for about the 14th time). My family were potless so that’s where I ended up. (I realised it was a rough school when I found out it had its own coroner)
The school houses were More, Fisher, Campion and Maine (all Catholics put to death by Prods), the only history we were taught was pre Tudor history, the texts were again pro Catholic and approved by the church, no mention of the reformation, I think they thought if they didn’t talk about it people might forget it ever happened.
We were told specifically in Geography that we wouldn’t be studying Eastern Europe or China, as they were “Communist Countries” and against the Catholic way of life. We were taught the dangers of VD and contraception by the local priest and my mate got six of the best for politely asking the question “father, if you don’t play the game, why are you making the rules?”. Mass was a regular feature as were appearances from various priests, nuns, etc.
There were regular “retreats” to the local monastery for weekend stays, where attempts to recruit for holy orders met with no success. However the secret way into the wine cellars was passed down by generation after generation of pupils in complete secrecy so copious amounts of sweet and sickly alter wine were consumed by grateful 13 year olds.
The head master was from Glasgow and the most Catholic man who ever lived, but Catholic in the Glasgow sense of the word (Celtic mad, keen on a fight and massively intimidating). As a result, all of the school sports teams played in Celtic kit, just in case the local Prod schools hadn’t realised we were papists.
Daily assembly consisted of about 3/4 an hour of prayers (Hail Holy Queen and regular Novenas to the Virgin Mary) you had to stand to attention for the full duration in absolute silence and if you moved (or as sometimes happened fainted with exhaustion) you got the belt. There was then a whip round to send the local disabled kids off to Lourdes, and if you didn’t cough up you got the belt.
The school had a secondary economy which operated mainly out of shop lifting, and anything could be bought for about 10% of the usual price at the top of the sports field from the younger members of the local “families” and it was not unusual to see the odd teacher approach these kids, especially in the run up to Christmas.
When you finally reached the sixth form there was a degree of relaxation, you could study post reformation history as long as it was French or Spanish history (because the Catholics “won”), but on the plus side twice a year there was a sixth form social evening with a free bar, to which the female pupils of the local Convent School (La Sagesse) were invited. (The head had connections with S and N brewery who would drop off several complimentary kegs of ale with the strict instructions that none of the underage drinkers could have more than a gallon)
Apart from that, it was all fairly normal.
I don’t think we should be unconcerned, but we should be more concerned about the 1,000,000s of modern day slaves in the world (one organisation has estimated that there could be around 100,000 in the UK alone)and the billions of wage slaves!
“Given these sorts of whopping profits, I can’t understand why conspiracists, instead of claiming the virus is a hoax and vaccines a vehicle for mind-control, haven’t touted the far simpler plot that the virus was manufactured by drug companies in order to sell vaccines.”
I have heard some consipiracists (I have an in law who is right into this stuff), claim that Big pharma have promoted this, however it isn’t “Big” pharma that are making the profits, the big three Glaxosmthkiline, Merck and Sanofi all had failed vaccines and lost $millions in the process, so much for conspiracies, it’s the anarchy of capitalism as bloody usual.
“Do conspiracists have to be consistent with each other?”
They don’t appear to have to be consistent with anything, e.g. truth, common sense, reality, etc.
Tories going in guns blazing (note also, they are branding themselves “Conservative and Unionist” in Scotland).
The Unionist Party was a separate party until 1965, although it was known and recognised as part of the Tory Party, Alec Douglas Home was actually a member of the Unionist Party and was technically the last PM who was neither a member of the Conservative or Labour Party. (useless information is my stock in trade)
Hi L Bird,
Many thanks for your words (genuinely). I agree with you that social engagement (perhaps enhanced with a few jars) would have been an excellent addition to the on line discussion. Hopefully that will come in the not too distant future.
Having spent my politically formative years around, but not joining the Leninist/Trotskyist sects I remember finding the democratic, open, straightforward approach of the SPGB and the comrades I met at that time an absolute revelation. No behind the scenes caucuses, no party within a party, no elitist groups. Hopefully you will find the same atmosphere, plenty of bickering, some falling outs, the occasional row, but all done in an honest, open and principled way!
“Implicit in what you’ve written, is that ‘science’ within a democratic socialist mode of production would based upon very different ‘purse strings’, ‘outcomes’, ‘compatible with socialism’, ‘democratic wishes’, ‘funding’ and ‘reality’, and an end to the ‘dichotomy’ between ‘pure abstract’ and human ‘need’. And indeed, our ‘scientists’ would become ‘servants’, not of a ruling class, but of humanity.”
Wouldn’t disagree with most of that, however not sure about “purse strings” and “funding”, but assume you mean that in terms of allocation of resources, as opposed to money??????
