alanjjohnstone
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I have asked the other members of the blog if they agree with your opinion, ALB and await their advice. Should they concur with your view it can be easily deleted. But as you know, there are within this thread differing opinions on its use. Yours is just one critical voice but i don't doubt there are others who will agree with you. Others though might not.(I note, however, the Socialist Standard editors have not issued any statement to defend or apologise for their use of an image which has proved unpopular with some members, and that is just to say that this blogger is not the only one who will defend "editorial" independence)The image was inserted on the blog about the Press Release because i thought it appropriate to show what Private Eye was referring to and was purposefully placed alongside the Private Eye article and not in the usual place for a pic, an article which we re-published, unlike our press statement which chose to omit it and merely cite the source which few may likely go to. That too can be considered giving wider circulation to their criticsm and detrimental to the party publicity. The Party, IMHO, has nothing to hide and some members do consider that we should conduct a ferocious campaign against Corbyn despite what unwelcomed bed-fellows we may acquire. Other believe it should be more of a nuanced attitude and not risk alienating an potential audience…not really an issue for the SOYMB blog because we struggle to get any traffic and the reason is little to do with our coverage of Corbyn and more to do with indifference of fellow members who don't even visit the blog (your good self an exception, ALB) The blog has already been critical of Corbyn, accusing him of counterfeit socialism so we already are part of this "ferocious" campaign by reproducing a branch leaflet.http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2015/08/jeremy-corbyn-counterfeit-socialism.htmlBut as i said…the other bloggers will have an input in whether it stays or goes…and we will take into account the general feel of all members who care to express a view.
SP, i have contributed to the SOYMB/Socialist Banner blog and have particularly concentrated on immigration…not merely the current refugee crisis but the Roma and the Eastern European movement of people. The blog tries not to differentiate between political or economic refugees, nor has it solely concerned itself with Fortress Europe but have highlighted the South African xenophobia, the treatment of the Asian boat people by Australia, the persecution of Rohingya muslims. (Some of my Material World articles have also focused on those topics)To be honest and this will raise the hackles of members, i get a feeling sometimes that rather than being part of the WSM, a "Little Englander" attitude persists amongst a few of us…for world socialists we do tend to be slightly parochial in what is popular on this discussion list. I know it is difficult but recently i drew attention to Islamophobia by the State, and the response was let's not get involved in debates about civil rights and free speech for it may lead to a view that we are sympathetic to muslim fundamentalism and we won't benefit from that impression. A problem confronting a few million fellow workers in the UK casually dismissed because of their religion. Nor is it just religion . You cite a thread i created ..the creation of a new left nationalist party in Scotland, you may also note that nobody cared to comment upon it. The Corbyn factor of the re-politicalisation of people as i have referred to previously, is not an isolated event and the Referendum in Scotland was an expression of it. Sadly, we failed to interact again with a political development of the workers. We could easily have highlighted the negativism of nationalism but still addressed the reasons and causes of its popularity when there is an apparent vacuum of alternatives . But to bring this back to the relevance of this thread…negativism can be reflected by omission…And the plight of fellow workers seeking refuge and safety and security and stability in their lives has been unfortunately missing from the forefront of our propaganda, given its importance at a world level. It too presents a problem of challenging the popular opinion and confronting fellow workers with what they deem as unpalatable truths.ALB is right, we have been lacking in instrumental action….being part of the political educational of our fellow workers and that means placing ourselves in the front line where our socialist case is not going to receive a warm welcome but indeed a hostile one. I briefly read the article ALB linked to and short as it is, it is a reminder of what politics is all about.I have argued for a multi-directional approach, no one size fits all…it says "Expressive and instrumental are therefore not mutually exclusive",. It says "concrete actions are designed to have a tangible impact on a target."…i have previously said that we should be actively campaigning with pickets and protests, no matter how small but more theatrical the better to attract attention to our case…Too often we have relegated ourselves to the sidelines of social protest for social change. Even marching on May Day was voted down this year. We exclude ourselves from involvement in peoples' politics (for want of a better phrase). IMHO, it seems we have no confidence in the correctness of our interpretation of the socialist case or hold the conviction that our ideas would prevail that we rarely put it to the test by placing ourselves alongside the rival organisations' theories, so we restrict ourselves to the already converted, the choir that sing from the same hymn-book. Today, you meet the cynical sceptical Alan, SP
Dead toddlers wash up on the beach and we consider Corbyn's attempt to become Labour Party leader as the main topic to discuss. Is this the right priority for the Party…a world socialist party?
The anti-Corbyn economists counter-attack in a letter in the FThttp://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/23076458-50d2-11e5-8642-453585f2cfcd.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3kacGBNjt
Quote:This shouldn't be such a difficult thing to resolve.I don't want to say i told you so (but, of course, i actually do) but some may well recall that after the election i was very much pushing for a special gathering (separated from ADM) to discuss and debate the lessons from our election campaign, something more substantial than the post-mortem we did have. Clearly the issue of Corbyn would not have figured at such a meeting since the leadership contest was not underway but i would say that many of the issues on our approach and attitudes being talked about now could have been settled and been getting applied today to the Corbyn situation, for i am confident we would have reached agreement on how to present our image to the public and designed a general outlook to implement.We wouldn't have been caught short by whats happening now and struggling to reach a consensus on how to respond to peoples' political aspirations. We have to have a fundamental debate on what we are and how we want to be viewed and re-shape ourselves to match that ideal model we seek to be. Already, someone, somewhere (i think Rod Shaw) has raised the question of the use of our language…make more use of qualifier like "world socialism" is his view, so i think we have to recognise we have to return to basics and begin at the roots of our problem.
YMS, try this videoOn coal 6.30 mins in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LcVU52b-KMAs i suggested, as a skilled and astute politician he is not burning any of his bridges by100% opposition to any coal mining if circumstances change in the future.
Quote:"they are such hateful tossers"That is a very disappointing observation and verdict. But it does return us to the question and issue…How can we be critical of those others find appealing? I am sure Derek Wall would not come to this judgement if our barbs were solely aimed at UKIP or the Tories. But we have to knock idols off their pedestals. How we do it deserves a Party debate and discussion? We have been pulled up for our aloof attitudes since i think Occupy and i'm not sure if we have learned any lessons. People ARE talking politics, and surprisingly Brand's initial "anarchistic" approach of no party politics is being rejected by people themselves.I don't have any answers but i know we aren't doing it right and so i am willing to try and experiment with different methods of trying to communicate…As i said previously…if people are rallyng to Corbyn because they view him as a progressive step forward, then we have to show how in fact he is conservative wih a small c …we need to use history and our collective knowledge of Labour from the past so show for all the claims, we have been here before and it is the same old story being re-told with a supposed new ending…and we know there can't be…We need to be clear on our core message…nothing changes without a socialist revolution and that means people understanding and wanting socialism…If Corbyn is Wilson's corpse warmed up …let us explain fully why we believe this…We are not going win over Corbyn supporters…but let try and make them listen to a reasoned disagreement that neither Corbyn or Sanders are solutions. We will be accused of the usual…sectarians…dogmatists…But in the end we will have the last word and ok its never popular…but we be saying we told so.My greatest fear now is Corbyn being cheated out the Labour Party leadership or being double crossed by the Parliamentary Labour Party and losing a future election because we all know what will be said… the ruling class conspired to keep him out, as good asa coup d'etat… so lets dump parliamentarian road… and his policies will be said to remain valid because they have not been put to the test…Strange that we need someone we don't agree with to succeed and then fail bringing misery and disillusionment before we can garner an audience for our ideas and offer them up as the way forward…i think that might smack a little bit like Trot theory…The other strategy to employ is to place Corbyn in the context of the Big Picture, and say its all a side-show, not worthy of engaging in and right now the two most pressing issues for the working class and socialists are environment and nationalism, neither of which Corbyn can do much about particularly the former and can influence the latter marginally, and focus our attention on those. We can relegate Corbyn to non-importance and defend that attitude from the Big Scheme of things in the world going on…As i said, no firm fixed solutions to our Party tactics…just tossing a few things in to be shot down…Whatever we decide must be for the long haul and ignore any temporary turbulence that we might encounter …
Quote:Sanders does not actually call for socialism. He is not running as a “socialist” at all. He does not criticize or even refer to capitalism or the profit system, the underlying political-economic regime that is wired for the endless upward distribution of wealth and power and the ruination of livable ecology. Sanders rails against “the billionaire class,” against economic inequality, against the Republicans, against FOX News, against the Citizens United decision, and against the terrible Koch brothers. He’s running as a strident populist Democrat. In that regard, he’s not really all that different from Dennis Kucinich in 2003-04, Jesse Jackson in the 1980s and even John Edwards in 2007-08, all of whom struck strong populist chords in efforts to reach the Democratic Party’s progressive primary base. When quizzed by reporters on what socialism means to him, Sanders simply says that the United States can learn a few things from Scandinavian states when it comes to having a stronger welfare state, socialized health care, stronger unions, and the like. He seems to be diluting the meaning of the word socialism (which for actual socialists refers to workers’ control of production and the democratic running of the economy for people and the common good, not the profits of a capitalist elite) as much as advancing it.http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/09/02/strange-words-from-st-bernard-and-the-sandernistas/Should we legitimise politicians who "dilute" the meaning of socialism (distort, may very well be the correct word) and avoid riticism that they are not offering socialism as a solution. We have to identify why some workers are expressing "liberal" views, and also understand why elsewhere they are resorting to "illiberal" opinions such as we are now seeing in Sweden or Hungary. They want change too, but not the change we seek and they see themselves as much dissidents and rebels as the left do. Our positive reaction is to promote the SPGB case. Neither Ca-moron nor Cor!-byn but world socialism. And accept the flak if it conflicts with other peoples political position.
The movement for Scottish independence has not gone away and we still need to answer the nationalists. Scotland would vote for independence if a second referendum on leaving the UK was held tomorrow, according to a new poll, for all thay may be worth53 per cent of Scottish voters would vote ‘Yes’ while 44 per cent would vote ‘No’, with three per cent undecided which way they would vote, the survey suggests.
YMS, Corbyn's energy views are here.He is not a "coal keep it in the hole, oils keep it in the soil advocate" and does consider re-opening coal pits when it is viable to do so (when prices rises and if there is a carbon capture technology.) http://energydesk.greenpeace.org/2015/08/07/jeremy-corbyn-interview-nationalise-the-big-six-a-solar-panel-on-every-rooftop-clean-coal/If it has long legs then it is not the usual distortion of the media but typical politician double-speak of being all things to all people and keeping all options open. The Private Eye quotes provided by Imposs demonstrate this, i think. He is a very careful speaker. ALB, I think, if the subject of a EC statement crops up at its meeting , then it should authorise a much wider press release on the whole topic of media distortion and scare tactics …nay, smear campaign…being engaged in against Corbyn.(i think i have suggested this before)As for the marmite picture…it made me chortle, very apt for Private Eye, and it isn't actually inaccurate is it? Certainly not a false assertion that he advocates BS capitalist policies….are we being too sensitive and sentimental…i always said our approach should be multi-directional…i never ever argued that it should soft-peddle…If we get known as the socialist party that is Corbyn-Cynics, then it is attention and as they say in show-business …any publicity is good publicity…An article in the economist confirming this – 'better to be reviled than ignored'…http://www.economist.com/node/18231516If he is elected Labour leader and then go on to be elected Prime Minister, i imagine our attitude towards Corbyn will harden or as i also suggested, it could be couched in humour and ridicule…and the Marmite image goes some way in saying the king has no clothes.
Just how are you aware of the message of the play, ALB, having never seen it? More on the actual play herehttp://www.theguardian.com/stage/2015/jun/02/east-london-school-play-radicalised-youth-homegrownI highlighted my concerns …Police monitoring of a play which was to be staged by a legitimate and reknown theatre group.Would you approve of secret police attending our meetings and insisting on seeing the speakers notes beforehand…[well, actually we would welcome any increased audience or attention, no matter the source]I find it worrying that you have chosen to describe actors and play-wrights as simply "muslims" ignoring any political or religious opinions they individually held and therefore justifying police-spies on their work. Googling reveals that it was covered by the media and people such as Simon Callow, David Hare, Young Vic artistic director David Lan and Liberty director Shami Chakrabarti, said the cancellation "is a troubling moment for British theatre and freedom of expression. We fear that government policy in response to extremism may be creating a culture of caution in the arts."I recall myself when at school, in the English curriculum, were the plays of Sean O' Casey …by the time i left school, they had been dropped due to the Northern Ireland Civil War…
Isn’t the creation of an ISIS central bank issuing currency and taking control of, and managing monetary policy, an obvious further step towards fulfillment of “statehood” for ISIS. ISIS first bank called the Islamic Bank opened in Mosul.The ISIS currency will include seven coins: two gold, three silver and two copper. The group said its 21-carat one dinar coin weighs 4.25 grams, while the 21-carat five-dinar coin weighs 9.50 grams. Three denominations of silver dirhams and two of copper coins were minted for smaller transactions and according to the Nov 2014 ISIS “Treasury Department” statement:“Based on the directive of the Emir of the Believers in the Islamic State, Caliph Ibrahim, may Allah preserve him, to mint current for the Islamic State, as it is far removed from the tyrannical monetary system that was imposed on the Muslims and was a reason for their enslavement and impoverishment, and the wasting the fortunes of the Ummah, making it easy prey in the hands of the Jews and Crusaders, the Treasury Department studied the matter and presented a comprehensive project, by the grace of Allah, to mint a currency based on the inherent value of the metals gold and silver,”Certainly considering the volatility of this "caliphate state" a return to the gold standard rather than paper fiat money is also obvious choice to make. Be worse if they were stable enough to have a fiat monetary system. Ron Paul seems interested https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_OYn5A5zC4Can't access the ISIS video direct…and would it be a terrorist crime to watch it, anyways.The ISIS voiceover actor says, in perfect English,
Quote:"As history repeated itself, one of the great forms of corruption that the earth came to witness was the dark rise of bank notes, borne out of the satanic conception of banks, which mutated into a fraudulent system of enslavement orchestrated by the Federal Reserve in America – a private corporation and system that would, through the use of deceit and force, deprive people of their due, by imposing upon them the usage of the piece of paper that came to be known as the dollar bill.It is the Federal Reserve bank note that they alone print, and that would go on to replace gold and silver which Allah created as the standard mediums of exchange for the purchase of goods and services. Allah blessed the songs of the Khilafah and gave them the ability and foresight to break from the shackles of the Federal Reserve system and to restore the gold dinar, and the silver dirham as the ultimate measure of goods and services beginning in the birth place of the Islamic State.”When debating those who promote alternative medicine against science and evidence based medical treatment, i frequently refer to Traditional Chinese Medicine and ask why they remain silent on elements in those. I ask about the use of animal parts that lead to animal cruelty. I often ask if tiger testicles are found to be a medical cure for certain ailments would those into alternative medicine advocate factory-farming of tigers to obtain that cure. Usually i am ridiculed at suggesting such a possibility.https://news.vice.com/article/bear-bile-farms-in-vietnam-are-making-animals-blind-sick-and-obese
Quote:Seven hundred bears have died this year on bear bile farms in Vietnam, due to starvation or infection, according to Animals Asia. Jill Robinson, founder of the organization, estimates that more than 12,000 bears are kept on bear bile farms in China and Vietnam. "The extraction of bear bile from live bears causes unimaginable suffering and long term health problems," she said.Animals Asia conducted a survey in 2011 of 60,000 traditional medical practitioners in Vietnam. Forty percent of them said they prescribe bear bile for serious aliments such as liver cancer, and for less serious ailments such as sore throat, bruising, muscle ailments, and fever. Something to cite when you next get into an encounter with a health "crank" who claims the moral high ground.
A well-stocked and well-presented lit stall.I'm pleased to read that the branch took it upon themselves to produce a re-print of the Miners Strike. How long a request to the publications committee would take, i'd hate to guess. Its local themed cover brings a community-feel to the branch's activities. The saying is "Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish". But as an Edinburgh member puts it "patience and perseverence can piss a hole through any stone".
This debate can be widened, and has been, to the SOYMB, Socialist Banner and Socialist Courier blogs. While the SS has an editorial committee so there is some sort of prior peer review of articles, blog-posts are missing this self-monitoring. Some times it has been accused by some of not presenting the party view correctly or without the qualification of appropriate disclaimers. Do we subject every post to the blog to a vetting process which would mean a loss of topicality, which the blog was set -up to redress in the Standard's once-a-month-analyses or accept as a price to pay for being daily and hourly that now and then it may not get it 100% right but also acknowledge the damage is minimal and can be rectified by re-editing or deleting offending passages or simply blogging an explanatory post if there exists a request for such. In many personal letters or emails the actual benefit of being published to the party is completely lost if either the party is not named in them or the sender doesn't sign off as a member. It is vital to name-drop for publicity purposes.You may recall that myself and StuartW had an exchange and difference in the letters section of the WW and a non-member also contributed by highlighting the disagreement of other members with my views were being expressed on Spopen). Unaminity of political opinion i don't think should be expected or demanded on every aspect of politics and the class struggle which aren't core to the SPGB case. If it is in a grey area, it will be clarified by further investigation if anybody's curiousity is piqued by a remark or observation.I have on Libcom expressed private opinions and said that a debate is ongoing on those views within the SPGB, even if the actual debate is just myself dissenting from everybody else
