alanjjohnstone
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“Some of the lithium that goes into mobile phones (child slave labour)”
I already covered that, ALB
Message #203620
“We can widen such a debate into a broader context. We are happy to use the technology you and I are using depends upon the pain and suffering of child workers. As you say everything is connected. Ye without sin, cast the first stone…as scripture says”
As you say, there are plenty of non-meat farming methods that are deserving of criticism and when critiques of cash-crop/plantation monoculture agriculture comes up highlight it. Again not necessary because of the effects on Nature or wild-life but the way it contributes to the small farmer being dispossessed by corporations, leading to depopulation of rural regions, increased migration and urbanisation – human centred. But not ignoring how that type of industrialised farming exerts unsustainable pressure on eco-systems.
“Whats the point”
We can join the dots about capitalist conditions and how there is an alternative way of producing and distributing resources other than the capitalist way, even if it does mean we are sometimes engaging in some speculation and some provocative suggestions and scenarios.
We have to justify socialism as a better society, as a more rational system, a world planned for the benefit of all of us. I don’t think presenting probabilities undermines the case for socialism. It adds meat to the bone (pun intended)
We aren’t writing the menu of the cook-shop but we should be explaining what type of cook-shop it might be.
Let us try and concentrate on where we all agree.
Socialism will be about a flexitarian diet for the overwhelming majority of people across the world.
The meat element will for various reasons but primarily one of ecological sustainability be very much reduced and the types of meat available will be different, subject to local geography and culture.
Change in production and consumption will also equally apply to non-livestock food such as grain, fruit and veg. Farming methods will be modified. Land-use will alter.
This will happen because there will be a shift in who owns and controls our food system. Only socialism will create this sort of change. This will be the challenge for those living in a future socialism, to re-think food itself, how we produce it and the systems we use to process, distribute and deliver it and to create diets and foods for the future that are safe, healthy, nutritious and ecologically sound for the planet. That will be their responsibility and I am sure the correct choices will be made. The beauty of socialism is that it will possess new technology and the question will be how to apply it and which model to follow?
Perhaps not overnight but in due course. As with the State, religion some things will not be abolished but will wither away as their functions disappear or the need for them disappears and vanish. At the beginning of the transformation and transition, the existing FAO could achieve its full potential as a key organisation for collaboration and co-ordination and at last achieve real results. Devolved agricultural committees could be set up in every country and these could be further de-centralised through regional and district committees. At every level throughout this structure, the FAO could provide skilled staff able to draw on its store of world data and technical information to advise and assist the work. This network could be extended to local farms with an ability to adapt to every local condition. The information technology exists for implementation. (I am minded of the experience of how Britain adapted farming in WW2)
So I repeat and let us be clear, the choice on how we produce our food in the coming new society will not be made by this forum or the Socialist Party but will be a decision for the generation that have the task of implementing sustainable ways of growing food in socialism. Whatever chosen will be fit for purpose.
For my part, I will continue to post on how food supply can be improved and expose how the real de-humanising of individuals takes place – the conversion of compassionate humans into cold-blooded slaughters at the price of their mental well-being.
Capitalism declares wars are necessary and socialists say they are inevitable under capitalism, but we do not condone the training, the drilling and the discipline that turns civilians into frequently unfeeling killing machines. I will continue to condemn the meat industry on those humanist grounds.
In 2012 the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported on a poll suggesting that at least one-third of Israelis would consider emigrating abroad if the opportunity presented itself. This was not to be temporary phenomenon. An updated 2018 Newsweek article stated that “Israel celebrates its 70th birthday in May with the opening of the U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem. Yet the country is grappling with an existential crisis. … Spurred by the high cost of living, low salaries, and political and demographic trends, Israelis are leaving the country in droves.” Given the fact that “Israel has one of the highest poverty rates and levels of income inequality in the Western world,” you can see why the notion that Israel is “absolutely essential … to the security of Jews around the world” is up for debate among Jews themselves.
When he isn’t promoting his pet hobby-horse, coops, Wolff does make good reading sometimes
The Citizens’ Basic Income Feasibility Study Steering Group is looking into whether Scotland should implement a pilot scheme. It said a pilot – which would run for three years – could provide a better understanding of how a universal basic income could impact on poverty, child poverty, unemployment, health and financial wellbeing.
Models vary, but the idea is based on an unconditional, regular payment made instead of benefits. A range of different figures have been suggested, but it would be enough to cover the basics of life and would serve as a replacement for all existing benefit payments.
The study suggests trialling two levels of payment – one that is broadly in line with current benefit entitlements, and another at a higher level which experts think is likely to be able to reduce or eradicate poverty.
Both slavery and indentured servitude go back thousands of years. Indeed both are fully endorsed by the Bible. And indeed slavery existed in Africa as well as in Muslim countries.
What we must be careful of not doing is being seen to be doing is blaming the Atlantic Slave Trade, the production of cotton, sugar and other commodities for the European market on Africans for it and so absolving capitalism of culpability and complicity.
The KKK and the later Know-Nothing Party were indeed anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish, too.
Even Eugene Debs in his earlier days expressed the prevailing prejudice against Italians, in addition to abiding by anti-black policies
“The Dago works for small pay, and lives far more like a savage or a wild beast, than the Chinese.”
The Italian “fattens on garbage” and cares little for civilization, and therefore, “able to underbid an American workingman.” Only in this way can the Italian appear industrious and Debs warned that Italy “has millions of them to spare and they are coming”
Jews fared little better. When it was announced that the London Board of Guardians had instated a program to transfer Russian-Jewish immigrants to the United States, Debs claimed that that this would increase the already increasing hostility towards immigrants. Identifying these immigrants as “criminals and paupers” Debs bemoaned the fact that most were able to “take up a permanent residence” and strongly asserted that “it was possible to end the infamous business.”
And our companion party in Canada had an element of anti-Chinese that the SPGB had to distance itself from those views held by some SPC members.
I have been guilty of associating indentured servants with slavery and the “black Irish.” I didn’t realise that such an association is promoted with white supremacists.
This is a lengthy debunking of Irish “slaves” had it worse that black African slaves
https://medium.com/@Limerick1914/the-imagery-of-the-irish-slaves-myth-dissected-143e70aa6e74
Depopulating pigs
Mogler aims to slaughter about 170 pigs every 45 minutes, using a rotating slaughter crew to avoid mental or physical fatigue. “Our capacity would be about 1,500 to 2,000 pigs a day,” he said. It will replicate a slaughterhouse death time of less than two seconds.
Gassing the animals is currently thought to be one of the fastest and most humane methods, leaving animals unconscious within two minutes and dead within 10.
Another depopulation option is overheating, or hyperthermia, commonly known as ventilator shutdown (VSD). A recent undercover video of an alleged VSD pig cull at a different Iowa producer contained disturbing scenes and sounds. Asked about the video, Mogler said it would have involved turning off the ventilation, turning up the temperature and then the introduction of steam. “It would take less than one hour and any remaining pigs would be shot with bolt guns. It might only take 10 minutes in fact for the pigs to die. But for us that is too long.”
Once again, LBird, I fail to meet the demands of your high bar.
“you can continue to blame the benighted ‘masses’, rather than blame the ‘materialists’ for their failure to read and understand Marx.”
Even though I made it clear that it is incumbent upon ourselves to convince fellow-workers, paraphrasing our Declaration of Principles. And if I wished to press the point on materialism, it is not “great men” that make history, not even Marx and it is an intriguing thought exercise to imagine if he never existed.
It may be a bit determinist but one only think revolutionary if he or she has a full belly (‘economic and material conditions’). And that is why when hunger and deprivation results in movements for immediate remedies and subside if those are achieved…a bit simplistic I accept, LBird, for ideas and slogans still do continue and endure, adding to the ideology of future class conflicts and sometimes making their objectives clearer.
Indeed an interesting read, deflating much of the hope and trust in #BlackLivesMatter.
A couple of points to emphasise – Firstly, identity politics is invariably co-opted by the Establishment and the big corporations as it doesn’t challenge the foundations of the system and secondly, the Democratic Party even when it had the support of the Southern Democrats, the Dixiecrats, has been the home of the African-American voter regardless of the damage its leaders have done to their communities.
In defence of the Planet of the Humans film
“Even if we could power the status quo with wind and solar, why would we want to? My favorite quote from Planet of the Humans is, “If we get ourselves under control, all things are possible.” “
Despite Murray Bookchin’s exposure, the deep greens still remain
https://www.dw.com/en/radical-environmentalism-we-need-to-be-ready-to-risk-our-lives/a-53729503
Tory pushes American agenda on lower food standards
the government’s own best-case scenario shows a US trade deal would lead to a tiny boost to the UK economy of just 0.16 per cent of GDP
