Zionism and anti semitism

February 2024 Forums General discussion Zionism and anti semitism

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 141 total)
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  • #176553
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    There are indeed better sources to use

    Haaretz confirms that she did indeed say she was happy to be a fascist although no reference to the rest of the quote

    https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-how-a-likud-mk-talked-her-way-to-the-top-1.5277198

    “proudly proclaiming “happy to be a fascist” in a televised interview”

    And another time calling Sudanese migrants a cancer.

    In regards to the broader claim we should add that related references to the rise of fascism in Israel are made by prominent commentators inside Israel itself.

    Barak, Israel’s ex-prime minister has warned that his country is “infected by the seeds of fascism.

    Israeli Maj.-Gen. Yair Golan in a Holocaust Remembrance Day speech compared Israel with 30s Germany

    Israeli journalist Gideon Levy warned that he saw the “first signs of fascism” in Israel.

    The nationalist right-wing extremist views seldom get reported by the main news outlets here in the UK but they are very influential in directing public opinion in Israel and are not on the margins but inside the government, such as Ayelet Shaked, a justice minister, who asserted that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and called for its destruction, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.”

     

     

    #176575
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster
    #176735
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Blaming anti-Semitism in Europe on the Muslims

    https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/blaming-european-anti-semitism-palestinians-muslims-190108114821148.html

    “Zionism is incorporated into Austrian and German nationalism, the far right accomplishes two goals: It whitewashes its bloody history of anti-Semitism and justifies its vicious Islamophobia”

    #176794
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    The links on this Libcom thread about the Holocaust makes provocative reading

    https://libcom.org/library/auschwitz-big-alibi

    #177092
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    According to a journalist, Bernie Sanders isn’t Jewish, he is Jew-ish because he is anti-Israel

    Bernie Sanders, Israel and the Middle East

    #177113
    Dave B
    Participant

    Post January 16, 2019 at 9:36 am

     

    ……….Axelrad also claims that the majority of Jews at the time was petit-bourgeois, which mirrors far right rhetoric around ‘Jewish capitalism’. Other Marxists have attempted to trace Nazi anti-Semitism and 20th Century anti-Semitism more generally to a materialist account of the ways that Jews were restricted to particular professions and forced to migrate in the 19th and 20th Centuries, but Axelrad rather than undertaking this just drops an unsubstantiated claim……….

     

     

    https://libcom.org/library/auschwitz-big-alibi

     

     

    I normally avoid this stuff like the plague or jumping into a vat of tripe.

     

    But it is has to be considered that 19th century perspectives on this kind of thing can be a little bit different to modern ones.

     

    It is fairly straightforward on the surface of things; there is another group of people who you hate they could be ‘Jew’s , Slavs, Irish , Catholics, Scouser’s or people from Stalybridge.

     

    [If you come from a middle class background you probably won’t have any understanding of these regional hostilities, and how intense they can be, of people who might live 10miles away- I think they are rarer than they were 30 years ago.]

     

    It is probably best described as xenophobia.

     

    Racism normally involves some believe or concern about ‘traits and characteristics’ that are ‘congenital’.

     

    They can obviously get fused and confused.

     

    I will come to anti-semitism in a bit.

     

    Sometime ago one of scions of my family who originate from Liverpool and were orange lodge protestants had a shot gun wedding with a Irish catholic Mancunian.

     

    There was full blooded fight later on at the reception needless to say.

     

    Thus I think you need to take the congenital racism out of the xenophobia?

     

    And?

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people

     

    And eg

     

    Kirk Douglas acting in a role as an “ayran?” viking.

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vikings_(1958_film)

     

    This kind of thing ran into difficulties with the Nazi’s as regards ayran.

     

    And Blue eyed blond ‘Jews’.

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

     

    Without going into the nonsense around that; these people are never the sharpest tools in the box.

     

    “………The Nazis used the word “Aryan” to describe people in a racial sense. The Nazi official Alfred Rosenberg believed that the Nordic race was descended from Proto-Aryans, who he believed had prehistorically dwelt on the North German Plain and who had ultimately originated from the lost continent of Atlantis.[35] According to Nazi racial theory, the term “Aryan” described the Germanic peoples.[36] However, a satisfactory definition of “Aryan” remained problematic during Nazi Germany…”

     

    In the 19th century a lot of anti- Judaism was ‘focused’ around opposition to the culture, religion, economic role and loyalty to the national identity; or questionable patriotism towards they country that the so happened to be living in?

     

    Karl for instance was somewhat critical of the ‘Jews’ and said somewhere about how they had tended enter the ‘pores’, was I think the word he used, of late feudal societies as petty merchants and traders.

     

    Although it goes back further than that to Roman times.

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora

     

    It was the diaspora thing that probably led to that; rather than any congenital conditioning.

     

    ‘They’ had an international common culture and language which had to some extent a self regulating network and a kind of shared commercial jurisprudence integrated into a religious system.

     

    Which facilitated international merchantile trade.

     

    Actually they were favoured as they could be trusted to stick to a contract, even if it was perhaps a shit one.

     

    And they could thus also drift into money lending.

     

    Buying cheap and selling dear, hoarding in scarcity and inflating prices etc didn’t help make ‘them’ popular.

     

    A bit like the shop-keeper in Zola’s Germinal?

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germinal_(novel)

    And there was stuff in the Making of English Working Class about riots and dispossession against ‘corn factors’ or speculators in ‘corn’ prices.

     

    They would forcibly take it off them in exchange for a reasonable price.

     

     

    But there is nothing necessarily ‘congenital’ about a series of material accidents of history driving a group into a an un popular economic role, sometimes.

     

    Most of the ‘real’ third generation working class in Western ‘Pale Settlement’ Russia and the RSDP party circa 1905 were secular ‘Jew’s’ eg the Bundists.

     

    Probably driven out of petty mechantalism and artisan work into wage labour.

     

    It wasn’t just the ‘Jew’s’ that got into the business of international finance and merchantilism.

     

    Eg The Knights Templars?

     

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38499883

     

    there was a ‘pogrom’ against them in 1306.

     

    “……Rumours about the Templars’ secret initiation ceremony created distrust, and King Philip IV of France – deeply in debt to the order – took advantage of the situation to gain control over them. In 1307, he had many of the order’s members in France arrested, tortured into giving false confessions, and burned at the stake.[13] Pope Clement V disbanded the order in 1312 under pressure from King Philip……”

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

     

    So you start with economic resentment and then develop some kind of ‘identity politics?’ to justify revenge? or economic liberation? or economic oppression.

     

    The problem can be once these kind of concepts or deceit or whatever is drummed into the heads of the masses eg Nothern Ireland in the 17th century.

     

    It is often harder to take them back out again long after the ruling class have any serious interest in it; or even be opposed to it.

     

    There is also the thing about Fred being against the Slavs.

     

    In fact it was more about a stereotyped notion of Slavic culture, as it was perhaps predominantly, as being the last bastion feudal reactionaries.

     

    Thus he had no problem with the Poles; or even Bakunin.

     

    Presuming they were “Slavs” I am often not up to speed on these things.

     

    “Anti-semitism” was the most significant expression of “racism” in England in the 19th century.

     

    So George Elliot who circulated in radical elements of the time wrote an anti anti-Semitism book.

     

    My interpretation of it was that it putting forward a ‘positive’ sympathetic expression of Jewish culture to counter prejudice.

     

    I choose not to agree with the interpretation that she was endorsing Zionism.

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Deronda

     

    I didn’t like it that much really and I think you have to be at least a “soft anti-Semite” to find it intriguing?

     

    Although you could say Dickens got into that kind of thing earlier?

     

    After Fagin in Oliver Twist of circa 1840.

     

    Riah;

     

    ….I reflected that I was doing dishonour to my ancient faith and race. I reflected – clearly reflected for the first time – that in bending my neck to the yoke I was willing to wear, I bent the unwilling necks of the whole Jewish people. For it is not in Christian countries with the Jews as with other peoples. Men say ‘This is a bad Greek but there are good Greeks. This is a bad Turk but there are good Turks.’ Not so with the Jews. Men find the bad among us easily enough – among what peoples are the bad not easily found? – but they take the worst of us as samples of the best, they take the lowest of us as presentations of the highest, and they say ‘All Jews are alike…….’

     

     

    ….Mr Riah – is a Jew who manages [English and non Jewish] Mr Fledgeby’s money-lending business. He cares for and assists Lizzie Hexam and Jenny Wren when they have no one else. Some critics believe that Riah was meant by Dickens to act as an apology for his stereotyping of Fagin in Oliver Twist, and in particular a response to Mrs. Eliza Davis. She had written to Dickens complaining that “the portrayal of Fagin did ‘a great wrong’ to all Jews.” However, some still take issue with Riah, asserting that he is “too gentle to be a believable human….

     

    Mr Fledgeby – called Fascination Fledgeby is a friend of the Lammles. He owns Mr Riah’s moneylending business and is greedy and corrupt and makes his money through speculation. He provides a contrast with Mr Riah’s gentleness, and underlines the point that “a Jew may be kindly and a Christian cruel”.

     

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Mutual_Friend

    #177114
    Dave B
    Participant

    …Genuine commercial people only exist in the interstices of the ancient world, like the gods of Epicurus or like the Jews in the pores of Polish society…..

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/commodity.htm

     

    Wealth as an end in itself appears only among a few trading peoples — monopolists of the carrying trade — who live in the pores of the ancient world like the Jews in medieval society. Wealth is, on the one hand, a thing, realized in things, in material products as against man as a subject. On the other hand, in its capacity as value, it is the mere right to command other people’s labor, not for the purpose of dominion, but of private enjoyment,

     

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1857/precapitalist/ch01.htm

     

     

     

    I think Poland became a safe place generally persecuted Jews and other religious minorities in 16th century so there was a lot of emigration to there.

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth

     

    You could make the argument that it was an intelligent economic strategy to pull in ‘skilled’ and   “commercial?’ labour and tap into it?

     

    The Jews I think tried to fit in by dressing appropriately eg

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolpik

     

    Not exactly indigenous headware for the middle-east.

     

    Along with frock coats and black cowboy hats or wide awake hats.

     

    http://hatguide.co.uk/wideawake-hat/

     

    so they are bit like the Amish in the US?

    #177315
    kronstadtjournal
    Participant

    Israel latest,Mandelblit to charge Netanyahu! this hit the media on 18,1,2019

    #182797
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Democrats on Monday joined Republicans in favour of taking up anti-BDS legislation, introduced by Republican Senator Marco Rubio. It would allow US states and localities to retaliate commercially against companies or individuals supporting BDS.

    The American Civil Liberties Union also said the anti-BDS measure “sends a message to Americans that they will be penalised if they dare to disagree with their government”.

    Israel sees BDS as a strategic threat and accuses it of anti-Semitism

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/senate-advances-anti-bds-legislation-190129025241533.html

    #183246
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Talking Points- Combating Israel’s Manipulation of the Media

    An article worth a read as it says as talking points

    #183344
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster
    #183465
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Does anybody seriously doubt that the pro-Israeli lobbyist organisation AIPAC provides donations to sympathetic American politicians to gain influence.

    To say so is anti-Semitic, particularly if you happen to be a muslim congress-woman. She answered a journalist’s question on  why US political leaders always defend Israel,  Omar replied : “it’s all about the Benjamins baby.” using a common  slang term for $100 bills. When further asked where the money was coming from she then answered “AIPAC”

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47201983

    There is no secret whatsoever about this AIPAC funding to sway politicians views, it is on official record, but to say so has now become anti-Semitic regardless that the focus on the tweets was Israel

     

    #183466
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    The Labour Party general secretary, Jennie Formby, revealed  673 complaints in 10 months alleging acts of anti-Semitism by its members, 96 members immediately suspended from the party for their conduct between April 2018 and January 2019, and 12 expelled,  211 were told they would be investigated, 146 members received a first warning, and 220 cases did not have sufficient evidence of a breach of party rules for an investigation, 44 resigned

    Formby said: “I totally reject the suggestion that the existence of anti-Semitism in our party is a smear. I have seen hard evidence of it and that is why I have been so determined to do whatever is possible to eliminate it from the party.”

    Labour MP  Margaret Hodge tweeted a warning not to trust the figures and said she was not convinced the party’s leadership were “serious on rooting out anti-Semitism”.

    673 complaints represented about 0.1% of the membership

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47203397

    #183589
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Former Labour vice chairman Michael Dugher has said he is intending to leave the party, saying he now regards it as “institutionally antisemitic”.

    Dugher, who was elected as MP for Barnsley East in 2010 and left Parliament in May 2017, claimed the party he joined nearly three decades ago “no longer exists” He served as vice chairman of the party under Ed Miliband between 2011 and 2014 and later became shadow secretary for transport and culture. Dugher, also a former vice chairman of the Labour Friends of Israel group

    He said Labour’s decision under  Miliband to support a backbench motion which would unilaterally recognise a Palestinian state was “a fundamental and rather catastrophic political management error”.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-antisemitism-michael-dugher-quits-former-vice-chair-a8783086.html

    He couldn’t accuse Miliband of anti-semitism since Miliband is a secular jew, could he?

     

    #183626
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Israeli Immigration Minister Yoav Gallant has called on French Jews to “come home”

    “The desecration of the Jewish cemetery in France conjures images of dark times in the history of the Jewish people,” Gallant said in a statement on Tuesday. “Last week I visited the Jewish community in Paris, which is under an anti-Semitic attack and in the process of assimilation. I firmly condemn the anti-Semitism in France and call on the Jews – come home, immigrate to Israel.”

    80 graves were discovered to have been daubed with swastikas at a Jewish cemetery in the village of Quatzenheim, close to the border with Germany in the Alsace region. Photos show the Nazi symbols in blue spray-painted on the damaged graves, one of which bears the words “Elsassisches Schwarzen Wolfe” (“Black Alsatian Wolves”), a separatist group with links to neo-Nazis.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/02/israeli-minister-tells-french-jews-home-vandalism-190219155156800.html

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