Scottish Referendum

May 2024 Forums World Socialist Movement Scottish Referendum

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 161 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #104220
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Did you see the video, i think by ex-Class War activist.http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=894_A7WZ9pg 

    #104221
    ALB
    Keymaster

    Thanks. No I hadn't seen it but it's pathetic and a disgrace, a cruder version of Tariq McAli's argument. Both of them still fighting the 19th century battle of the industrial bourgeoisie against the landed aristocracy and its cultural leftovers today, a battle won in 1911 when the powers of the House of Lords were clipped and Lloyd George imposed heavy death duties on them. Don't think much either of the fascist-like populist talk of the "paedo-State"

    #104222
    Darren redstar
    Participant

    A superb explanation of why I am no longer a class war member.not a single class argument just knee jerk anti establishment dressed up as politics. Sad really

    #104223
    SocialistPunk
    Participant

    Out of interest I had a look. What a load of bollocks.His response to the machinery of the establishment pushing a "NO" vote, "…..so by sheer anarchist logic, the Scots should vote "YES."  In other words anarchists should support the smaller pro capitalist state, but not the larger pro capitalist state.He references the song "Anarchy in the UK" by the Sex Pistols, so I wonder if Johnny Rotten had such a thing as supporting the likes of the SNP, when he wrote the lyrics? I doubt it.He talks as if a "YES" vote will lead to some "new political culture" and bleats about British nationalism while encouraging anarchists to vote for Scottish nationalism. To quote the pompous anarchist caricature Rik, from the tv show The Young Ones, "Now that's what I call anarchy."

    #104224
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Vote No Statement of  the Socialist Equality Partyhttp://socialequality.org.uk/scot-statement/

    #104225
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    A better anti-Yes article by John Wighthttp://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-wight/scottish-independence-obscures-real-divide-_b_5714057.html

    #104226
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    And George Galloway adds his say NO voice criticising the Reds in Kilts..(i prefer the CP anti-John Maclean insult better "Claymore Communists" )http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/dundee/fiery-george-galloway-blasts-reds-in-kilts-1.543954 

    #104227
    ALB
    Keymaster

    Yes, the case against voting YES is so overwhelming that I'd almost be tempted to vote NO ! After all, there are some valid reasons for doing so: a YES vote would encourage a nasty petty nationalism, undermine cross-border trade union unity and threaten even more established living standards. It looks as though we are going to have to rely on the common sense of a majority of Scottish workers to avoid this. I'm prepared to stick my neck out and say that I'm confident we can rely on this.

    #104228
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Letter in the Guardian today:  

    Quote:
    Discussing the referendum earlier this week, Sir Tom Hunter said, "whatever the people decide we'll just get on with it" (Report, 20 August).  And the "we" Scotland's first billionaire is referring to is really the few who own the country.  "That's democracy", he concedes, generously.  In fact it is the opposite, but he neatly exposes the irrelevance of the referendum and the sham that is democracy within capitalism.

     Brian Gardner   Glasgow Branch   Socialist Party of Great Britain

    #104229
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

     

    Quote:
    undermine cross-border trade union unity

     i wouldn't want to be too negative and say it would automatically lead to union splits. There already exists the STUC structure. The labour movement would adapt itself as the Irish trade unions did. Necessity as they say is mother of invention and cross border union activity would still take place, i believe, as it does on a case by case basis today such as inteachers union where duplication of effort is already standard due to separate education system. My own ex-union CWU is affiliated to the TUC, the STUC and the ICTU plus with the wider international union organisations. 

    #104230
    ALB
    Keymaster

     

    Quote:
    undermine cross-border trade union unity

    I was thinking that a separate capitalist state in Scotland would make it more likely that a situation would arise as in Ireland after "independence", as described in The Manifesto of the Socialist Party of Ireland (later the World Socialist Party of Ireland) published in 1949:

    Quote:
    Today the Irish Trade Union movement is in a crisis. Two rival Congresses seek to dominate the position. Yet the workers of Ireland are no less solid to-day than they were forty years ago. It is not they  who are divided but the “leaders” ─ men who have allowed personal ambition and private feuds to over-ride all consideration for the working class in general and members of their own Unions in particular.Here is an extract from the Minutes of the Conference of Irish Unions, held at the O'Connell Hall. Dublin, on March 21st, 1945:—"The issue they were there to consider was a simple one; it was whether they would continue to operate under an executive that was dominated by the British Unions. The British Unions would have to go. We know how to talk to one another in Ireland, but we don't know how to talk to British Unions. They are SLIMY."It is not a little difficult to believe that the man who made that statement claims to be a member of the working class. This man forgets (?) that it was the united action of the Irish and British Labour movements which was responsible for the release of the Irish political prisoners on hunger strike in 1920—this man forgets (?) that the Irish workers had the support and backing of British Trade Unionists, as exemplified by the following: A Special Trade Union Congress, held,in London on July 13th, 1920, carried this resolution by a large majority:—"That this Congress protests against the British military domination of Ireland and demands the cessation of the production of munitions destined to be used against Ireland . . . and in case the Government refuses these demands we recommend a general down tools policy, and call on all Trade Unions here represented to carry out this policy, each according to its own constitution by taking a ballot vote of its members or otherwise."In this present clash of personalities and ambitions in the Irish Trade Union movement, however, the Socialist Party of Ireland favours neither side. That is to say, we do not urge the acceptance of either set of Trade Union leaders contending for the dominance of the Trade Union movement. We support and favour all steps taken to unite the workers of Ireland—north and south—in one industrial organisation, in one Trade Union Congress; but that support and favour is not to be understood as support and favour for Trade Union officials who shout loudest for "unity." They may desire unity now—but because their motives are other than the interests of the Irish working class, to-morrow they may commit worse anti-working-class crimes than the one of sundering the Trade Union movement. Unity, yes . . . But unity in the interests of the working class and its struggle against the employing class and capitalism.

    In fact, what happened to the working class in Ireland after a separate capitalist state was set up there surely has lessons for workers in Scotland tempted to support setting up one there too.Incidentally, a facsimile of the whole pamphlet can be found here. 

    #104231
    ALB
    Keymaster

    In recent days capitalists in Scotland have been coming out in favour of YES or NO. The split is revealing. It's more or less the same as in the UK over the EU, with smaller capitalist concerns catering for the home market favouring breaking away and bigger concerns producing for export favouring staying. From today's Times:

    Quote:
    Sir Brian Souter, chairman of Stagecoach, Ralph Topping, the former chief executive of William Hill, and Paddy Crerar, the founder of Crerar Hotels, were among those prepared to swing their entrepreneurial weight behind a "yes" vote on September 18.Their push came just a day after 130 influential businessmen, including Douglas Flint, the chairman of HSBC, and Andrew Mackenzie, who runs BHP Billiton, signed a similarly firm No missive to The Scotsman, warning that the case for independence had still not been made.

    As someone from Edinburgh University's School of Business explained:

    Quote:
    Professor MacKay said that his research suggested that business attitudes towards independence tended to be dictated by where their customers were primarily located.

    So it's buses, hotels and betting shops versus international banks and mining companies. Consumer goods industries v producer goods industries. Big capitalists v smaller capitalists. Marx's Dept I v Dept II. Some choice.Best for workers to abstain and leave the capitalists to settle the matter amongst themselves. 

    #104232
    ALB
    Keymaster
    #104233
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    Much the same can be said about anti-immigration types.By coincidence, from a soon-to-published draft blog-post on immigration, sitting on my computer

    Quote:
    " A section of the capitalists generally reflect the interests of middle-sized companies which have not invested abroad, who sell on the domestic market and out of fear of competition from the giant multinationals, they wrap themselves up in the patriotic flag and right-wing populism, warning about the immigrant “hordes” threatening our culture and values and demonising them as criminals and terrorists. Such “respectable” politicians (and they are not restricted to UKIP) give aid, comfort and stimulation to neo-fascist thugs. The mainstream of the ruling class largely accepts immigration, since it provides a layer of readily exploitable workers. But when times anc conditions changes, the ruling class may move  to harass immigrants and also to try to bar them"

    In the case of Souter, we can, i think, assume an independent Scotland's transport policy will be determined by what is good for Stagecoach and  that there is no chance of renationalising of the railways north of thr border!! Another endorser of Yes  ex-RBS chairman Mathewson also happens to be on the Stagecoach board although it is his RBS credentials advanced..seemingly he's untouched by the RBS collapse although this article accuses him of sowing the seeds of it.http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ian-fraser-mathewson-sowed-seeds-destruction-fred-shred-goodwins-reign-terror-rbs-1455224 

    #104235
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/08/31/yes-fife-in-the-sun/#comment-91909Rattled a few more cages on the Bella Caledonia website ( since according to a famous quote nationalism is a poison, shouldn't it be re-named  Belladonna Caledonia)

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 161 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.