Jesus.
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I know most atheists, like most anyone, do not comprehend socialism and are dismissive of Marxism, equating it with religious sects. Lenin and Mao persecuted and killed priests, nuns and monks, and destroyed ancient buildings, books and art. Buddhist monks in Mongolia were forced into the army.
But you can’t call the Roman proletariat a working class. Of course, there would have been those who did some work, shopkeepers etc., but their livelihood was the dole, paid by the Emperor. The Imperial dole was paid to all who applied, as long as they were freemen, was paid for life, and had nothing to do with work or the lack of it.
Yet the proletariat furnished the ranks of the early Christians, not the slaves (contrary to popular belief). Kautsky explains the rise of the large landed estates (worked by slaves) and the consequent expropriation of the small farmers, who thus became the urban proletariat.
Robin Lane Fox: Pagans and Christians is another splendid source.“ Yes. It means those who reproduce themselves.
It only means the working class today”This is one of the problems that capitalism, following the introduction of more effective contraception, more and more members of the proletariat are less keen to reproduce themselves.
I don’t think this is due to any reluctance to have children, but rather the economic pressures that the profit motive that impacts on all sections of society.
Wages are likely to be set at the cheapest level which workers are prepared to accept. In previous periods those wages include the price of the generally inevitable cost of raising children. With choice about reproduction, the economic pressures will always favour the cheapest wages, i.e. the wages of workers who are reluctantly do without having children
Yes. It means those who reproduce themselves.
It only means the working class today, in the context of capitalism.————————————————————————————————-
The concept applies to any human being who must sell his/her labor power to survive. The law ofvalue marginally existed in pre capitalist society
Japan is becoming a society of elderly people but most of them are proletariat . China is controlling the birth rate
If you want to revise everything it is up to you I do not want to become a Bernstenian
The current fall in new births which is hitting Japan and S. Korea must be a consequence of the extreme stress workers are under there. The hikikomori phenomenon (young men taking to their rooms and only leaving for solitary meals) and the rise to 40% (is it?) of men in their 30s remaining not only celibate but virginal is another sign of social stagnation.
Different pressures lay on the Roman prole, but in common with today’s was poverty. His reason for being (his farm) snatched from him, he was thrown into the dangerous metropolis, often to live amid filth and squalor and condemned to idleness. The dole covered his immediate needs, yet his life was sordid. New cults boomed as he sought meaning in life, and the more exotic the cult the greater its success as the Empire, having reached its full extent, declined. On one hand were the new cults and on the other ever more sickening blood-letting “games” to preoccupy him against his better judgment. Celestial paradises became more attractive as his days in this world got ever uglier and fearful. Doom prophets found a ready audience, as they do today.
Mexican workers are also under a lot of stress, and they have big families, and the man is the main provider. And most of them are youngsters.
Some white nationalist groups in the USA do not want to be replaced by them, but probably they must take more Viagra or less .contraceptive
Catholicism is also becoming the second largest religion, and some Protestant denominations are scared too, and they have a large conversion of protestants to catholicism; they might lose the clientele
So, according to your view, Engels was wrong when he said that primitive Christianity was similar to the modern working class movement.
No, there are similarities, but the Roman proletariat were not the working class, the slaves were. The proletariat were largely poor, though.
Engels also dated the Apocalypse of John to the CE 60s, whereas it is now dated to the 90s. But there are a multiplicity of Apocalypses, the one we have as “John’s” probably based on, hence repeating allusions to Nero. Yet Nero was maligned.
Saying Marx and Engels are wrong about details does not make me a “Bernsteinian” and does not invalidate historical materialism. Marx and Engels are not Apostles!
I think you somewhat idealise the first Christians. Even “first” or “early” Christians are problematic. The first would have been Jewish Zealots, and they kept all the Jewish religious laws and did not trust “Paul”‘s Gentile Christians. So right from the beginning the Christians were not a united group but bitterly at loggerheads and in mutual hatred of each other.
“In his comprehensive study, Pagans and Christians Lane Fox breaks down the social origins of early converts: [1]
The Lower Classes & Poor: The church provided a strong community and social network that appealed to marginalized groups, including the urban mob and slaves. However, he explicitly dispels the old misconception that the early church was primarily a religion strictly of slaves. [1, 2, 3]
The “Middling” Sort: A significant portion of the movement consisted of independent tradespeople, merchants, and freedmen who had a certain degree of property or localized authority. [1]
Women of Property: Women of independent status and moderate wealth played a crucial role. They often served as patrons of early Christian congregations, hosting meetings in their homes and funding local leaders. [1]
The Elite: While the highest echelons of the Roman civic aristocracy and imperial elite were rare in the earliest days, the faith did reach the ears and homes of upper-tier individuals, including slaves within “Caesar’s household” and high-ranking provincial priests. [1]
Ultimately, Lane Fox illustrates that Christianity’s ability to draw from this multi-tiered social mix—from abysmal poverty to minor local magistrates—was a major factor in its resilience and growth.”The “afterlife” was invented to protect God from charges of incompetence and uselessness when things failed in one’s real life, which was happening constantly in 2nd century BCE Judaea.
A similar ploy, earlier, was the replacement of magicians by priests (see Frazer) who, as intercessors, cannot be blamed when prayers aren’t answered.
“Early Christians”, as I think I said already, is not any one thing. Saying they were communistic – well, probably so – but they were never one church or group. And they all, long before Constantine and long before “orthodoxy”/Catholicism, hated each other and saw each other as heretics. So, “early Christianity” for a start should be called early Christianities.
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