Wez
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ALB – I just get the impression sometimes that our Party is moving away from Marxism and embracing an anti-intellectual perspective. I thought the whole point was that before socialist consciousness historical development was independent of human intentions and desires and so constituted, as you say, a ‘coercive force’!
As I keep repeating, even if he lost interest in ‘philosophy’ Marx’s analysis was dependent on a dialectical critique which was, undoubtedly, philosophical in origin. The same can be said of science since logic, empiricism and materialism on which it depends are all philosophical concepts. Philosophy after Marx went from strength to strength under the Frankfurt school. You have previously poured scorn on the philosophy of science but it is only through the critique of what science is and what it is not can it be rescued from becoming an ideological religion. There has never been anything more ‘speculative’ than science’s present theory of ‘dark matter and dark energy’ which could well mark the beginning of the end of present scientific paradigms.
‘There is a big world out there that probably you do not know, there is a big world outside of the socialist party, I might ask the same question why thousands of others members of others organizations do not join the socialist party?’
MS – the answer to your query is quite obvious, they do not join the Party because they are not Marxists. I speak, of course, of the thousands who have encountered the SPGB and rejected it.
‘At times i wish Marx and Engels never ever existed…’
Alan – I wish at times that capitalism had never existed. Sometimes socialists seem to think that if Marx agreed with their specific perspectives then it is proved correct instead of occasionally using Marx’s own theory to disprove some of his conclusions.
MS – ‘thousands of Marxists’
Where are these Marxists? I wish they’d join the Party.
MC – ‘I can’t separate Marx the polymath, into discreet sections from the philospher, dialectician, anthropologist etc et al.’
I couldn’t put it better myself – one of the holistic principles of the dialectic.
MS – As I suspected, you have no evidence for your assertion that Marx abandoned the dialectic. I’m well aware of comrade Buick’s thoughts on the subject and he has every right, like you, to be mistaken. Even if Marx had thought that philosophy was of no further use the science to which he aspired was the child of philosophy in terms of its materialism, empiricism and, in Marx’s view of science, in its dialectical analysis.
MS – why all this prejudice towards the dialectic? Dialectics are fun and give us extraordinary insights that Marx used in his analysis. Understanding the dialectic is not difficult and once the basics are understood it helps to understand Marx’s method which many find inaccessible otherwise. I recommend you read Bertell Ollman’s Dance of the Dialectic which helps demystify the philosophical tradition.
LB – what do you make of Trevor Ling’s position that, with reference to the Buddha and Christ, it is the acquisition of the thoughts and values of such individuals by a State that transforms them into a ‘religion’ which inevitably subverts the meaning intended by its originators? Religion in this context is always an instrument of control and oppression.
‘Religion as a social fact, expresses itself through world epochs and is an anthropological constant.’
You can say the same of exploitation, authoritarian hierarchies, superstitious ignorance, fear of the unknown etc. Does that mean we shouldn’t seek to eradicate these things from the human community? Isn’t it our duty to oppose the belief systems that support such iniquities?
Indulging in ‘identity politics’ is a sure way of losing focus on resolving the class struggle. One of the few things I agree with Lenin about is his assertion that trade union consciousness and political consciousness are very different things and the former rarely translates into the latter. ‘Appealing to our common shared experience’ might well lead to victim mentality and political cynicism and is no substitute for focused revolutionary action born of political education.
‘ I feel differently. It is as said previously, appeal to the commonality, firstly, as fellow human beings, and, secondly as fellow-workers. Achieve those and socialism will come.’
A common refrain from reformists. Trouble is that when this fails to resolve anything, and if we align ourselves with such an approach, the whole struggle for socialism is weakened by being associated with it. Capitalism will always find minorities and those who represent ‘the other’ to oppress because its failures will always need such scapegoats. It feeds on the victims of war, famine, religious sectarianism, racism etc.
DJP – I think that I got the idea from Hill that they amassed such wealth that they became capitalists. If we’re mistaken I’m sure someone on here will have evidence to the contrary.
Fascinating stuff Robbo. However the writers of ‘How the West Came to Rule’ take a different view:
Meanwhile, the failed attempts at absolutist state-building during the Tudor
period (particularly between 1529 and 1547), and Elizabeth’s abandonment
of all ambitions to develop a continental-style monarchy, had left the English
monarchy painfully dependent on Parliament for raising the revenues required
for waging war.and
In terms of military and fiscal effectiveness, the Stuart state
was backward in comparison with its continental competitors.Is the ‘absolutist state’ mentioned above the same thing as the ‘centralised state’ that your above quotes believe is the prerequisite for capitalist development? Such debates are what give this period its continuing allure for historians. I take it then Robbo that your objection to the description of events in England in 1642/45 as a ‘bourgeois revolution’ is the term bourgeois which you would substitute with capitalist or agrarian capitalist? Unlike TM you do regard it as a political revolution and not just a squabble between capitalists?
