Wez
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Roberto – Consciousness of our mortality, your ‘finitude’ as you call it, can also have the reverse effect in terms of religion and/or despair. I don’t see any evidence that this has been a positive motivation in political history. What are your thoughts concerning the reasons put forward by the ‘Frankfurt School’ for the lack of class consciousness among working people?
TM – You don’t have to possess a knowledge of the materialist conception of history to be class conscious.
Roberto – Of course capitalists do not always act in their own class interests but this is down to economic ignorance rather than a lack of class consciousness. If you agree that the awareness of our ‘finite time’ on this planet does not affect ruling class consciousness why should it affect working class consciousness?TM- Any chance that for once in your life you can answer a question? Would you agree with the simple proposition that the ruling elite are infinitely more class conscious than the working class?
TM – I wasn’t talking about ‘capitalists’ I was talking about the ruling elite in what I said above. Of course they are all capitalists but not all capitalists are members of the elite. Would you agree with the simple proposition that the ruling elite are infinitely more class conscious than the working class?
I think the ruling class are very class conscious in this country. They know instinctively who’s one of ‘them’ and who is not. If the working class had a quarter of the consciousness as our rulers then the revolution would have happened long ago. Of course this is helped by them living in their own social ‘bubble’ and never mixing socially with the majority. Nothing to do with intelligence – it’s just a sociological fact.
Roberto – I can agree with your 7 points above but I think the problem goes much deeper , as described by Marcuse, Fromm and Adorno. Would you say the ruling/parasite class are ‘class conscious’? I believe that they are and doesn’t that rather contradict some of your 7 points?
Speaking of inevitability our planet will see another ‘extinction event’ so we better make the most of our species time here. The band Nightwish have a tune called ‘the greatest show on earth’ which traces the evolution of life on our planet. It ends with the words ‘we were here’ to emphasize the ecstasy and tragedy of human existence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJepbPuqNU4
All a bit doom and gloom comrades. We may be small but we do exist which counters any generalization such as: ‘Marx and Engels overestimated the working class’ or ‘that modern capitalism has eradicated class consciousness’. We are examples of the very things that you say don’t exist anymore. Are we that different or that special compared to everyone else? Slavery and feudalism lasted hundreds of years and capitalism a mere 400 so perhaps you guys are examples of the cult of ‘instant gratification’ that so permeates this culture? The working class murdered each other in their millions during the last century and that trauma has yet to pass. Given that recent history no wonder that political cynicism thrives. You speak of the ‘finite time’ of our individual existence but be aware that we are a very young species that is just emerging from the superstition of religions and reactionary ideology. Get a little perspective guys.
TM- I think we must always be aware of the ideological background of the writers of antiquity and later history. The lionization of people like Cicero by later historians was mainly because of their ‘bourgeois’ sensibilities and their love of a rigid class structure, property and elitism and a disregard of his being a slum landlord and a murderous hatchet man and rabble-rouser for the patrician class when they felt threatened by any level of economic or political reform. Until relatively recently historians, for instance, were all ‘middle-class gentlemen’.
Paula and others – I didn’t notice much ‘joy’ of the game when England lost to Argentina – more like anger and recrimination!
CDM – Understanding the nature of capitalist culture is important if we are to counter it. Football is the world’s most popular team sport with fanatical fans. Why is this and why is it so often associated with reactionary politics? Millions of young (mainly) men attend weekly matches when their money and time would be much better spent on political activity. Marx had little to say on this ‘culture industry’ but the fact is that it constitutes both the greatest global distraction and, in my perspective, cultivates anti-socialist tribalism.
BJ – Well it looks like the ‘moderator’ wants to terminate our debate so I’ll just sum up my position. I can thank BJ for introducing the political element into our discussion concerning football hooliganism. At his prompting I’ve done some research into the 1930s only to find that Mosley regarded football matches as recruiting grounds for his movement. Moreover I was unaware that Mussolini made football the totem of Fascism and invested and centralized the game which, as a result, won two world cups in the ’30s. It would seem that football and fascism have a long history going right back to the creation of the ideology. As for Paula’s assertion that: ‘the SPGB gives us no hope or enjoyment, just despair’ – I have to ask, if she feels that way, why is she a socialist? That she sees football as giving us ‘hope and enjoyment’ is testament to its role as distraction and TMs ‘bread and circuses.
BD – All very fascinating but what has it got to do with football culture from the 1960s till today? Again you ignore the evidence that many of the right wing thugs of that time were the same people as the football hooligans. Do you deny the evidence presented in the video I linked you with? In a separate conversation do you think the Fascists in this country were close to achieving political power – I’ve always thought they were a ‘busted flush’ from the start (separate thread needed). Do you deny that football fans were and are a fertile hunting ground for right wing movements not only in this country but, it seems, worldwide? I think the explanation put forward by the psychologist in the video was spot on? Your thoughts?
