Wez
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Almamater ‘I can not imagine going to a discotheque or a night club to dance protest music’
Back in the day that’s the only kind of music we used to dance to – Burning Spear, Johnny Clarke, The Abyssinians, Gil Scott Heron, James Brown, Bob Marley, Misty in Roots, Cymande etc., etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RTs7erqEWM
Thomas More seems to be almost relishing the idea of a third world war – perhaps he sees it as the revenge of his beloved animals?
TM ‘Species difference and diversity is not a comparing game.’
One of the ways in which we understand the world is through sameness and difference so, in many respects, all language depends on a ‘comparing game’. This is how species are categorized scientifically and why such categories are continually subject to change. It’s hard to imagine literature without metaphor!TM – You do talk the most absolute nonsense. From whence does your straw man of hierarchy emerge in anything I have said? Presumably you are a socialist because, among other things, you wish to protect the environment for your beloved animals as well as ourselves – does this make you a believer in hierarchy? Surely it is just a recognition that our species can be in a position to help other species that do not have our level of consciousness. I will not repeat again that I am a determinist and do not believe in ‘free will’ but your need to believe that I do blinds you to this fact. Indeed you are trapped so deeply within your own preconceptions and prejudices about your me and your fellow species that further discourse seems superfluous. I wish you adieu.
TM – To say that we are the only species (on this planet) that is conscious of the laws of nature is not arrogance but a fact.
TM – ‘You see i have no problem because i don’t see humans as “above” anything. We are an animal species, material organisms, including our wills, which are the effects of sense impressions, external and internal motion.’
Of course we are ‘above’ all other species because we are an example of the universe becoming conscious of itself. Suck it up TM and all the responsibilities it implies.
TM-‘The motive in you to believe in free will, because you feel the opposite diminishes your sense of moral agency, seems so strong, you maybe should yield to it, and reject a materialism which you feel is reductionist.’
There you go again, telling me what I think. I was a materialist probably before you were born so don’t be telling me that I’m an idealist. I’ve said that I accept that: ‘One answer is that even if we see free will as an illusion, we can still recognize the social requirements for ethics and morals.’ but don’t like it because it points to a weakness in materialism/determinism. Here’s something I wrote many years ago that might set your heart at rest: https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2017/2010s/no-1357-september-2017/crime-and-capital/
‘One answer is that even if we see free will as an illusion, we can still recognize the social requirements for ethics and morals.’
I like that but it goes against the socialist grain a bit since we value ‘truth’ above all things.
TM- ‘You will, however, yield to the strongest acting upon your will, not the weakest, and your choice will be made accordingly.’
In other words you believe that we are moral automatons.
TM-‘You think there is an entity called “you” inside your body, inside your brain, receiving audiences like a king, or god, and whose decisions are independent of material motion.’
You’re not very good at this debating thing are you – telling people what they think is very annoying and confrontational. Like Freud I think the ego, the ‘you’, is an evolutionary entity that enhances survival. As I keep saying, to your apparently deaf ears, I too am a determinist but I believe the theory can and does erode individual moral agency and dehumanizes. Despite your name (real or not) you seem to have a deep contempt for Christianity and perhaps this is what drives your contempt for agency or ‘free will’ as you call it. Have you heard this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00z5y9z
BD – I agree with most of what you say and indeed you restate the very point I was trying to make. However we dedicate ourselves to educating the working class to a level where they can understand their class and its revolutionary role. This is quite an elevated concept for many and if we are to have a mass movement then your contention that only those who are ‘talented’ in this area can achieve consciousness makes the revolution impossible.
TM – Intelligence has always been a problematic concept because it seems impossible to measure and define different levels of it within the human population. I only mention it because you gave me the impression that you thought it was an important factor in the development of moral and political character. Your determinism makes internal moral debate seem redundant but we all constantly wrestle with opposing scenarios before we act and are not moral automatons.Getting back to the theme of this thread would you agree that the problematic concept of intelligence has very little to do with the formation of politcal ideologies? And isn’t it the case that without moral integrity no amount of ‘intelligence’ is a substitute? This places moral agency at the heart of political activity and therefore seems to undermine determinism.
TM -I refer to his elitist views concerning the ‘Übermensch’ who would rise, through his own will, and become a superior being. I was never able to discern a coherent political thesis in his work which is why he can be interpreted by almost all types of politics as one of their own – this is probably both a strength and certainly a weakness in his writing.
‘If you’re referring to the elected members of the government, educated – agreed, intelligent – perhaps not.’
It’s an old leftist cliché based on elitism that ‘if only people were more intelligent they would agree with us.’ Levels of intelligence have little or no influence on political ideologies. Some of the most brilliant scientists have appalling reactionary political views. Nietzsche and Heidegger were undoubtedly geniuses but just look at their politics!
‘Those who would are not likely to think in philosophical terms in the first place; unless they are the fictional villains of De Sade’s novels. (And i don’t think your unrepentant rapist or street thug is that bright).’
TM – Just to point out that some of the greatest criminals have been highly intelligent. The government is full of highly educated and intelligent people without one moral compass between them.
