Wez
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TM – Such a question belongs on a different thread. I’m not a romantic when it comes to nature and there are probably species that we could do without (parasitic worms, certain viruses and bacteria etc.) but, as I say, that’s for another thread.
pgb – ‘sharing a sense of belonging to the place where he lives,’
Of course we feel that sense but not to arbitrary tribal areas but to the planet as a whole! Ever since we saw our tiny blue jewel of a planet hanging in the immensity of black nothingness from the perspective of the moon many realized that tribalism and the ruling class’s manipulation and perversion of communal feelings was destroying it. Socialists have always known this but those images from space are a startling reminder of how tiny, delicate and alone humanity is.
The Russian people overwhelmingly ditched Bolshevism and it’s time TS did as well – it was an historical dead-end. Incidentally in all my 60+ years I can truly say that I have never read the Guardian.
‘You are just wasting your time’
MS – We may be wasting our time with TrueScotsman but someone reading the debate who might hold similar views may be persuaded by our arguments. As for the anachronistic use of the designations fascist and nazi some have attempted to, along with bolshevism, put them all together under the concept of ‘totalitarianism’. It would be foolish to deny that they have much in common such as curtailing freedoms to guarantee them, worship of a charismatic leader, militarism, love of authority, xenophobia etc. Call it what you like: fascism, nazism, totalitarianism, nationalism or just decadent capitalism the truth is that they are all dependent on irrational ideologies. Of course we need to put such movements in their historical context but that doesn’t stop their continual reappearance which implies such impulses, like religion, are deep seated in all private property societies and constitute a profound psychological barrier to socialism which needs to be confronted.
“And the Bolshevik states were also fascist, no less fascist than Germany, Italy and Spain.”
[Moderator deleted offensive quote from True Scotsman]
TS – No similarities then? Bolshevik authoritarianism, militarism, imperialism, leader cult, hatred of democracy, state dominance in every sphere of life both private and public, nationalism, ruling elites, wage slavery, continual sloganizing propaganda, racism, no free speech or press, politicized courts, concentration camps (gulags), etc. etc. I suppose if you were ever to open your eyes to historical and political reality rather than ideological slogans your whole world would disappear into ashes.
MS – Having made a lifetime study of the works of Marx and Freud together with that of the Frankfurt school I would have to profoundly disagree with you. Remember that the term ‘pseudoscience’ is also used by the reactionary element within the ‘scientific community’ to describe Marxism and any other theory that they dislike ideologically.
Just to add that not all of us consider Freud’s work to have been ‘debunked’. For me his theories give the only possible explanation for irrational reactionary ideology. When combined with a Marxian perspective they can be very productive as in the work of the Frankfurt school. Of course there are some elements that are mistaken but, as with Marx, we don’t discard the entirety of his work because of the mistakes he made.
We haven’t mentioned the development of the ‘industrial military complex’ where the state is in control of vast amounts of capital that employs millions of workers. Would it be true to say that within some states (the US?) the whole economy is dependent on military income and expenditure? I believe the armaments trade is very lucrative for the capitalists in this and many other countries? Could capitalist economy work at all without war and preparing for war?
‘Actually I don’t, but millions do and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.’
Lizzie45 – Well yes you do because you think ‘millions’ do. The irony is that many among your millions make exactly the same claim – I would support socialism but that would be a waste of my time because the vast majority will never support it. It’s a self fulfilling prophesy. In fact I never buy this excuse because it’s plain that those who use it are just projecting their own misconceptions, doubts and insecurities onto the ‘millions’ of others – it’s merely a way of not taking responsibility for the consequences of your political actions.
‘Wez, far from being sympathetic to us, it’s the Left who are responsible for damaging the word SOCIALISM so much that it’s well-nigh unusable.’
TM – I agree. However all of my friends are lefty/liberal types and we can tolerate each others politics because of the shared absence of racism, xenophobia, belief in religion, sexism, nationalism, belief in capital punishment etc. Does this make them more politically progressive? I know this means creating another thread if we are to continue the debate.
‘Lol. You have no case. That’s why there’re only seven of you. At some point surely it has to start sinking that maybe your ideas are quite simply…shit.’
We are the second oldest political party in the country and have seen literally hundreds of different Leftist parties/groups come and go having achieved nothing (except harming the case for socialism).
TM – the left were never progressive to me but I sometimes get the impression that comrades think that they were/are more sympathetic and thus susceptible to our case than the right.
Ex DJs ain’t gonna be left outta this jam…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btNbCUHAXvY
TrueScotsman turns out to be a true Tory with his love of leaders, authoritarian social structures and war. What a joke that he considers himself a socialist of some kind. He continues to do us service by reminding anyone who still believes that the left are ‘progressive’ in some way that many of them are reactionary to the core. Cheers TS.
In the Communist Manifesto Marx advocates state ownership to hasten the development of capitalism thus making socialism possible. Of course he did not believe that this was a form of socialism but in the case of Russia state ownership did accomplish an astonishing rate of industrial evolution that enabled them to beat Germany in WW2. In the 1960’s they were the first to launch a satellite, launch a man into orbit and, I think, send a probe to the moon so I don’t think your claim that they were stuck in the 1950s is entirely justified.
