Bijou Drains
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It’s not just a possibility it happens all of the time. I remember back in the day there was a comrade from Iran who had come to similar conclusions as us and I believe had even got himself to Hyde Park Corner and was putting forward Socialist Ideas, completely oblivious to ourselves.
“A book festival is being held in Wigtown between 27 September and 6 October 2019 and K&S branch have booked a pitch at the festival when 3 or 4 of its members will be running a Party stall during the first few days of the event. ”
Dave – What dates are you planning to run the stall on?
It might be possible for me to get across from Newcastle depending upon timing. Just to check it is Wigtown, not Wigton?
Jeez Alan, I didn’t realise that things were so draconian. Not that I’m seriously suggesting it, but would the same be true for you in the Republic of Ireland, I’m applying for my passport as a plan B now that Boris Gump is in charge.
Adam, my original suggestion was to do both a political and or practical weekend. If it’s not really worthwhile doing a practical why not try and arrange a political weekend in London. I remember a comrade from the Irish party in the 80s or 90s putting forward the idea that we could be a big party in a small area (perhaps Nigel McCullogh). The idea being that we pick one ward in one constituency and make sure we stand at every election, local, national and European (well you never know) and concentrate propaganda activity in that area. To an extent we are doing that already in parts of the South. If we could organise a biennial activity weekend based in a specific area, perhaps it would help boost recognition in that area. Depending on the take up it could range from leafleting or holding a meeting in the area, through to activities such as the ones Alan is suggesting.
How organised and far reaching it was would depend on how many people wanted to do it.
I take on board what your saying about doing it in the North, however personally having a HO to base ourselves in in London is a big help and to be honest it is as cheap and as quick to get to London for me as it would be to get to Manchester (you try a three hour journey on a Northern Rail Pacer train with one toilet and no food trolley, it’s grim up North)
Alan to put both sides of the story, I think that unfortunately a great deal of the day to day running of the party falls to the comrades in the South East area, which perversely means that the area with the most opportunity for initiatives like the one you suggest, tend to fall to comrades who already have their hands full. I can understand why it might be a bit irritating to these comrades to have suggestions for even more work.
In a way that was what I was trying to do something about by suggesting we have a weekend of activity organised for regional members to come to London and do something to take the burden away from the South East based members. Perhaps we could incorporate the idea of Local History events into it.
I also wonder why we need to get the EC involved in organising such a thing, and thinking about it this might be part of our problem. What’s to stop a like minded group turning up at head office, and just getting on with doing things for the party? If five of us, for instance, coordinated with the premises committee and came down to London and tidied up the back yard at HO, or washed all the windows, or whatever, why do we need to bother the EC? I’m sure they have got better things to discuss than that. Perhaps part of the problem is we are waiting for some committee to do things, rather than just get on with doing it.
To set the ball rolling, I’ve booked in time to come down to HO on the weekend Friday 31st Jan to Sunday 2nd Feb. I’ll sort out my own travel and hotels, I’ll see if I can get a couple of other sympathisers I know of and perhaps a NE based comrade or two to come down that weekend. Perhaps, like the Lancaster Social Weekend comrades from that neck of the woods would come down to HO, if there was something constructive to do and a bit of socialising as well.
If Dave or any others in the South East can come up with suggestions about what can be usefully done, put it on here, I’m happy to do anything but eat vegan food.
As to the idea of us being a one man and his dog party, Alan, apparently the dog had to be put down last week. 🙁
Schekn I don’t want to discourage your Socialist activity and your work with our movement, but I do need to question you (in a comradely way) when you make statements like ” I can imagine that the less educated people are going to be more stubborn and so harder to convince.”
I learned my Socialism from socialists like Bobby Gleghorn, John Toomey, Kevin Lennon, Davey Adamson, the Maratty brothers, Harley Weirs, etc. You can look these names on line and you will find no academic citations, they were/are colliers, shipyard workers, etc. not part of any intellectual elite. Just ordinary workers who believed a better way of living was possible for people of their class.
Going back to an earlier theme that “we are not ordinary people”. I would disagree and also agree. In many years of working with people in often distressing and difficult situations, I have never met anyone who is ordinary, similarly in my social and family life I cannot remember anyone who, when you scratch below the surface, is in any way ordinary. In that sense we are all ordinary, in as much that none of us is ordinary.
Similarly when putting the case forward for socialism most people I have discussed it with can understand the concepts and a large number agree with our conclusions. The problem is, and it is a big problem, that because of the very small numbers of socialists, socialism doesn’t seem likely to happen any time soon and so to lots of people it does not seem like something they would devote time, money and effort to. I would estimate that of people I know, who I have discussed the party case with, I could name about 40 people who would vote for a Socialist candidate if they thought there was a realistic chance of that candidate being elected. I’m sure other members could do similarly.
I suppose what makes us “not ordinary” is not that we are some imaginary “top 10%” but that we are all to some extent optimistic about change (even you Alan!)
No one is arguing that the planet is not in crisis, what I am saying is that linking it population growth is erroneous, even if population was to fall be say 20% and we continued with the current industrial practices, driven by the profit system, that crisis would still be reached, perhaps at a slightly later date, but reached all the same.
To return to your point I fully understand what you are focusing on here, your view is that effectively with regards to groups like ER we should become more approachable and say, “yes, the environment is in danger, and profit-based economic system is to blame. Let’s work together to change it.” Actually this is precisely the approach I see Socialists take all of the time. Not just with environmental groups but with other single issue groups fighting issues like poverty, racism, war, etc. It’s also the approach we take to Trades Unions, etc. We engage in debate and discussion with these groups. However we must remain opposed (hostile if you like) to the dangerous conclusions that organisations like ER have come to, which is that the situation is solvable under capitalism, in the same way that we opposed CND’s view that war and nuclear weapons could be abolished under capitalism.
Shekn “we cannot estimate resource depletion in socialism based on capitalist data. Where did you see me claim that we can? I am really not sure what you are arguing against here, as my position was never to concentrate on overpopulation.”
can I quote you?
Contribution <u>#189414</u>
“I do however insist that current understanding of ecological state of our planet in the scientific community clearly is that overpopulation is at the center of the climate crisis,”
Is that exact enough for you?
A slightly different point about human population size and growth can be made when we look at biomass. If we take the argument that in terms of food consumption, most animals very roughly require the same amount of food per cubic centimetre of biomass (although in real term larger animals are more efficient), comparison of human biomass with non human biomass is very interesting.
For Example human biomass is now estimated at about, 385 million tonnes, the estimated biomass of termites is 445 million tonnes and the biomass of earthworms is a staggering 6,800 million tonnes. Does this mean there is an overpopulation of termites and earthworms? How much green house gas does the average termite give off? well it is reckoned that up to 3% of global methane comes from termites, however they have a “technology” that could help us out when it comes to the amount of methane being produced by our activities –
https://phys.org/news/2018-11-termite-mound-filters-methaneand-greenhouse.html
An interesting comparison is that in pre- whaling days, it is estimated that the Blue Whale population had a bio mass of around 40 million tonnes, that equates to about a 1/10 of the current human population biomass, on a diet purely based on krill!!
The apologists for war, famine, racism, etc. have often used overpopulation as a reason for these human activities (and I am not for one moment suggesting this of you Schekn). But it is interesting that there is no record of great blue whale wars of conquest, or North Atlantic blue whales ganging up to stop those bloody Antarctic Blue Whales coming round here causing problems, etc.
Shekn – Whilst I accept wholeheartedly the viewpoint that the resources of the earth of finite and that at the present rate of consumption and the misuse of these resources cannot be sustained, I differ with regard to the view that this is caused, or can be solved in terms of human overpopulation.
As socialists we can see that huge amounts of food are inevitably wasted through the capitalistic mode of production and distribution. There are a myriad of examples of this, food being destroyed to boost market prices, arable land being taken out of production for the same reason, the blight of cash crops, the insane levels of waste of food for a variety of reasons (for example it has been estimated that in California 50% of food production is thrown away, etc. etc. In fact the whole market system where food production is limited by the by the fact that it produced to meet the needs of the market and not the needs of human beings, completely distorts the picture in terms of production of food.
Another small but relevant example, I was recently on holiday in Lanzarote, a very barren landscape, but dotted at regular intervals with Golf Courses, all beautifully kept and verdant. I did a bit of research and found that across the Canary Islands alone there are at least 25 golf course each with an average size of 150 hectares per course. although in capitalist terms it is not cost effective to turn this grass production over to the production of another type of grass (wheat), it is an example of what can be technically done. Working on the basis of Australian farms which farm in a similar climate and produce an average of 9.33 metric tonnes of wheat per hectare, this gives us a potential of 13,995 tonnes of wheat production. So if human ingenuity can turn the deserted landscape of Lanzarote into golf courses, purely because it meets market demands, what potentially could human ingenuity create, released from the demands of production for sale on the market and freed from the dictate that human labour can only be used to produce what is profitable to the few.
Again when we come to discuss greenhouse gases, the point the socialist makes is not that we need to move to some kind of puritanical society where we capture our own farts to save the planet, but that at least 50%, if not more of greenhouse gas production is unnecessary. The natural resources used to sustain banking, insurance, advertising, stock market, invoicing, etc. etc. are a massive. All of the travel involved, the lighting, the heating, the air conditioning, etc. etc. will be unnecessary in a Socialist Society. I look at my own work, mainly training and teaching, about 70% of what I do and the resources I use doing the job are unnecessary. Just taking the one point you make about aquifers, how much water is used globally in production processes that are heavily reliant on the use of water, not because it is necessary but because it is cheaper than sustainable methods
The point I am attempting to make is that examining what is possible and likely in a capitalist society and applying it to a socialist society is not only erroneous, it actually depletes our case of one of its strongest arguments, that we do not stand for equalisation of misery, but the best for everyone.
Perhaps the answer lies in the increasing trade and other links being developed between Iran and Pakistan. Historically there have been quite close ties, Iran was the first country to recognise Pakistani sovereignty. There is talk of a Iran – Pakistan – China pipeline. There is a free trade agreement between Pakistan and Iran, Iran has pronounced its support for Pakistan over Kashmir, etc.
It seems like the world is solidifying even further into two opposing trading blocks, backed by their military strength. India at the moment appears to be courting the block that includes the US, Saudi Arabia, etc. whereas Pakistan appears to be heading more in the direction of the Russia, China, Iran camp. It’s just like the Krays and the Richardsons really, just teh Krays and the Richardsons had more compassion, humanity and regard for human life.
I haven’t had a chance to see much on RT, but I would bet they are playing up the dispute for their masters int eh same way as the Western media are paying it down for theirs
The trouble is L Bird, that you state that:”The Truth” can only be established by a democratic vote of all of the world’s workers, but how can this be true, if all of the world’s workers haven’t voted to say that it is true?
Can I suggest that you go away and arrange a poll of all of the world’s workers to establish if what you are saying is an individual is true and then if you have established it as true, using your own criteria of a world wide plebiscite in which the majority have voted in favour of your definition of truth, we can talk about it.
Otherwise, by your own definition, all you are doing is coming on to this board and spreading untruths.
