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This from a thread publicising a meeting in Brighton on 15 September:

gnome wrote:

In addition, the tactics of the likes of Naomi Klein, Caroline Lucas and Derek Wall, along with special reference to the present Corbynmania phenomenon, will be ruthlessly exposed and dissected…

Why, Gnome, up the ante in the discussion here by introducing your approach into publicity for a public meeting?  What you say here is going to happen at the meeting doesn't seem the best way to win over people in an area which has Britain's only Green Party MP. Much better to concede that the likes of Klein and Lucas are asking the right questions but providing the wrong answers or even that they are making some good proposals but that  these won't be able to be implemented unless we get socialism (the approach we took towards the Green candidate in Oxford West in the general election) than to "ruthlessly expose" them in an in-your-face confrontational way.. That type of aggressive, macho approach won't go down in Green circles (and, presumably, the hope is that some people who may well have voted Green will turn up). It will just put people off.Incidentally, we will know by then whether or not Corbyn has been elected Leader of the Labour Party which, if he has, will have interesting political implications which will inevitably come up at the meeting.

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Before engaging Derek Wall people should know where he is coming from. As has been pointed out, he spoke at one of our summer schools and knows the party and its position well. Even though he is in the Green Party he stands for socialism/communism in our sense and is well-versed in Marxism. His criticism of us has always been that we don't do anything except engage in so-called "abstract propagandism" for socialism though at one time he was prepared to recognise that this was useful since nobody else was doing it.This time he seems to have gone completely overboard for Jeremy Corbyn:http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-41a3-A-win-for-Jeremy-would-benefit-the-entire-left-not-just-Labour#.VerrD30WNdgSo it looks as if he would still attack us even for simply arguing that Corbyn is a reformist (as he is) without the Marmite pot incident.Incidentally, SP, to be fair our tweets do attack Tories and Ukippers too. See (you don't have to be a signed up as a tweeter to look at it):http://twitter.com/OfficialSPGB

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That's a red herring, not to say a kneejerk. Nobody is saying that we are not opposed to Corbyn or the Labour Party. That's not the issue. It's about the way and tone in which we express this opposition.

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Vin wrote:

gnome wrote:

Socialists are therefore hostile, not in the sense of committing violent acts against other parties or their members, but to the ideas of those parties which support capitalism.

Gnome, Where does this come from?

These words appear elsewhere on this site (explanation of Clause 7 of the Declaration of Principles):http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/our-object-and-declaration-principles

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alanjjohnstone wrote:

SOYMB blog will remove the relevant blog-post if instructed to do so by today's EC meeting.

There is nothing wrong with the blog reproducing the good statement from the media committee or the Private Eye article. The objection is to it reproducing the Marmite thing in the middle of a controversy about it, i.e that's all that would need to be removed if it's decided to close the stable door after the horse has bolted.

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jondwhite wrote:

Not saying I agree with either image but I've found the Socialist Standard from October 1979 front cover used the Leninism: 57 varieties image (the Solidarity pamphlet is possibly dated 1972 and I'm not certain uses it anyway)

This is a brilliant, original SPGB production which others have copied, not the other way round.

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Now, as a result of the blog item, it's been re-tweeted (scroll down):https://twitter.com/officialspgbPeople will think we're proud of it and that we are indeed waging a "ferocious media campaign" against Corbyn.Why don't members think before they shoot?

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Just read in the papers that in the television debate last night between the 4 candidates Corbyn said he was in favour of the decriminalisation of cannabis.  I'm sure there will be some members who won't consider that a "bs policy".

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Why are members still distributing this stupid and damaging marmite thing when they know that it has caused damage and is criticised by members and could be disavowed?http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/private-eye-and-spgb.htmlIt doesn't express the Party case properly and is not even factually correct (are we opposed to Corbyn's policy of opposing and repealing anti-trade union laws? Are we against his anti-war stance? Are these "bs policies"?). Reproducing it on our blog is giving it wider distribution than originally and so credence to the false Private Eye allegation that we are engaged in "a ferocious media campaign" against Corbyn.Is it too late to take it down?

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Here is Derek Wall speaking only 3 years ago:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2P7zXktn3gSometimes we're our worst enemy.

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I think the distinction is more between "instrumental" and "expressive" action, as the late comrade Jack Bradley used to insist. Here's a definition of the two:

Quote:

Instrumental action refers to action as an attempt to influence the social and political environment; expressive action refers to action as an expression of people's views.

And an article illustrating the difference:http://beautifultrouble.org/theory/expressive-and-instrumental-actions/We've a tendency to unconsciously go for "expressive action". Which is conforting for us but not so effective in getting our ideas across to others.

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In the Files section of Spintcom athttps://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/spintcom/filesbut you need to a signed up to spintcom and signed in.

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Don't know how to do or copy a screen grab but here's what the Private Eye piece says:

Quote:

IN THE hysteria provoked by the supposed far-left infiltration of the eternal Labour leadership contest, one sect of hardline pamphlet-pushers is staying resolutely on its street corner.The 300-strong Socialist Party of Great Britain has launched a ferocious media offensive against Jeremy Corbyn, accusing him of being a capitalist shill keen to implement a "staid, unradical government" and Photoshopping his head on to ajar of Marmite "rich in BS policies – 100 percent capitalism".Despite the revolutionaries' complaints that the Tory press's bogeyman is "just Harold Wilson warmed up", could the Clapham-based outfit have ulterior motives? Despite the party pushing for the abolition of banks and money, London's property boom saw the value of its HQ almost double between 2013 and 2014 to £900,000 – with cash reserves taking its total wealth to just under £ 1.3m. Its media spokesman protests: "We are not a charity, we are not giving it away to the poor, we are using it to propagate the case for socialism."God forbid a politician comes along who wants to do something about the housing crisis and unearned income…

Not sure we can complain really as it's a bit of a case of the biter bit. We use a Private Eye type front cover and they publish a Private Eye type piece on us.

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I have to confess that Vin, SP and JDW have been proved right. Some idiot sent this from our twitter account on 16 August:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMh5m2wWgAAxURh.jpgIt's been picked up by Private Eye who have replied in kind on p. 9 of this fortnight's issue.The EC needs to disavow it on Saturday but the damage has been done.

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Just remembered. Someone who was at that meeting sent this report to us which gives some idea of the impact of Corbyn's campaign.

Quote:

The day hope came to the old coalfield. Now it is May among the mountainsDays for speeches in the valley townsDays of dream and days of struggleDays of bitter denunciation The words of poetry are written by Idris Davies a miner and poet from the Rhymney valley , his piece was written in 1926 and comes from his book entitled “an angry summer” fast forward 79 years and an alteration to the month in the first line and we find ourselves in a similar position today.I stand on a mountainside at the very top of the valleys at the northern most point of the old south Wales coalfield, I stand at the spot where arguably the area’s most famous son Aneurin Bevan addressed the masses. Michael Foote was also known to speak at the location during his time as an MP for the area after Bevan’s death. I come here today to listen to Jeremy Corbyn on his whistle stop tour of Wales, this is an excellent choice of venue from the Corbyn team they stand at the head of a number of historically socialist valleys, the location itself is unremarkable but it is highly symbolic for the local population, just to the north lies the secret chartist cave where the marchers would hold secret meetings before their fateful march on Newport. Beside him stands a memorial to the men that left the mines to join the international brigades and fight the tyranny of Franco of which there was quite a considerable number.These valleys have always been labour area sometimes veering even further left with communists winning seats and majorities through the 1930’s, little Moscow is a few valleys over and Nantyglo and Blaina were regularly mentions on the front pages of the daily worker, the old industrial area also claims that workers first marched under the red flag for the first time in Merthyr Tydfil.The history and current social conditions seem to be ripe for Corbynmania, the area is deprived there is no other way to say it, the first foodbank in Wales was opened and now there are 6 in a 10 mile radius.Blaenau Gwent is top or near the top of nearly all undesirable league tables this is the situation it finds itself in today.A new movement may just be what this place needs to rekindle the fighting spirit of days gone by, large swathes of the population are politically inactive with the most common reason being cited as politicians appear to be all the same, career driven and interested in their advancement only, others say labour used to speak for us but have abandoned us and now the majority remain apathetic.Many are not wholly concerned about right or left wing many will not know what this even means , political idleness has led to a lack of understanding in these parts , Corbyn appears to be changing that.As I listen to the speech I understand the allure to him, I understand the valleys hope created by his campaign, and Corbyn seems to be a breath of fresh air on these isolated hills. For an area in steady decline with failed regeneration projects time after time a new direction is what these people seek, the message from Corbyn appears to hit direct at the core of valleys folk and their identity, of course community identity is in a constant state of flux and cannot be neatly packaged, but it is on the foundation of the pit village morals and ideals that have influenced the area from the very earliest settlements does this movement strike a chord. “we’ll keep a welcome in the hillside, we’ll keep a welcome in the vales” as the famous song goes and today with the humanitarian crises throughout the middle east and Europe there should be a great feeling of sympathy for these people and Jeremy articulates a widely held opinion that more needs to be done to help , we must have sympathy as we are all sons and daughters of migrants , our ancestors were all attracted by the prospect of work that the industrial revolution brought, it was for them as it is with the refugees and migrants today a chance to work and provide for their families a chance to provide for their families a chance to live in security with all the positive freedoms that accompany it , the Corbyn message promotes helping these people and is vehemently opposed to the disturbing language used which seeks to normalise fear and anger at these desperate people.We must however acknowledge the rise of the UK independence party in many working class areas and especially in the traditional labour strongholds of these constituencies, the people of the area see the widening inequality around them, a recent study shows an astonishing figure of up to 30.12% of children living in poverty that is just under one in three, an easy and effective way of answering way there is a widening gap between rich and poor is to apportion blame on migrants and asylum seekers, they see these people as the reason as to why they are working 40 hours a week for their poverty wages opposed to the real and more complex reason of our callous economic system whose god is mammon, Corbyns message is clear and true to labour values dearly held amongst the working class of these constituencies, principles such as equality of opportunity, provision of public services and, above all ensuring that poverty becomes a thing of the past, in such a deprived area you can see why corbynmania is expanding .Jeremy recently captured the attention of the locals with a bold almost unbelievable claim that the reopening of coal mines may be possible if markets once again become favourable. Every man, women and dog has an opinion on this and this is a great move again by team Corbyn to capture attention of the labour heartland and to get people talking about his campaign , the decline of industry and no alternative source of employment has made these towns what they are today , reasons given for the decline are many and include mismanagement by the national coal board , unfavourable geological conditions , the heroic Arthur or the Rogue Arthur , the downing street medusa or simply the flow of capitalism in its raw heartless search for profit take your pick.There is little doubt however about the reserves and the quality of coal still available in our coalfield, a handful of mines may well be economically viable but the question remains can it really be carbon neutral ? I firmly believe many communities would welcome back mines to the area despite the recent rejection of the opencast mine by Caerphilly council, we are of course talking hypothetically if prices one day rise again , but the idea to tap into the local psyche and talking direct to traditional labour in this area is a very savvy move.He appeals to the older generation of valley folk as he is well versed in our history of deprivation and struggle, where he especially captures attention is my own age bracket of 18-25 , I find myself asking myself what are the reasons for this , why do I find myself googling searching two or three times a day to read the latest articles.He is something we have never experienced before, positive policies, progressive policies of internationalism the aim to tackle injustices of the world in a sensible way, which my generation are ever more aware due to the internet , the more we see this the more socialist policies seem progressive and the only real way we will achieve peace , tackle inequality and create a more equal society.I believe what Jeremy offers to this area specifically is optimism we here in the past have little to be hopeful for but new transport links and an new motor racing circuit coming to the area along with a traditional labour leader who is very much a progressive movement creates a belief that a change is around the corner.

The reference to some people there turning to UKIP is apt. It's surprisingly high given the history and nature of the area. At the general election in May UKIP came second in Blaneau Gwent with 18% of the vote. Many must have been ex-miners.

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