alanjjohnstone
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Quote:They did not even talk openly of the abolition of money!
So we Communists didn't disdain to conceal their views and aims?When did the abolition of money begin to feature prominently in out case for socialism? When did the term "free access" come into common SPGB usage? How did we first begin to promote the idea of the end of buying and selling?If many think our case for the abolition of money is our Unique Selling Point – as it is also with Zeitgeist. What should it be repaced with if we don't wish to discuss the complications of implementation? What Jack Bradley material – can you offer some links, for futher reading Kaz?
Quote:it's better to just continue using money for those parts of the economy we can't immediately make free,How do we acquire this money?I think you state it will be fiat money issued via some sort of UBI. Is this related to helicoptering in money as on the other thread? Didn't the Bolsheviks justify the worthlessness of their inflated rouble to abolishing money?So it isn't earned as wages? Do we still receive monetary wages? Or as some suggested in the past, we will be paid in labour-time vouchers and non-workers receive some sort of agreed allotment? I raised the possibility of black-market – and we know rationing created the spivs of WW2. Are prices going to be indicative prices as in Parecon? I don't think you mean that but just want to clarify. You mean more that a pound of sausages was 50 pence pre-revolution – it will be 50 pence post-revolution, regardless of availability.
Hmmmm….Should i be a British nationalist…or a European nationalist? Or a world socialist? Much the same issue when Scotland had its referendum…a Scottish nationalist or a British nationalist?Some say the answer is whether the outcome increases or decreases division and solidarity. Always comes down to it…opting for the lesser evil. Clinton or Trump? Corbyn or Cameron? …Countless, innumerable choices of the same nature made in the past, the present and the future and we still struggle to communicate a message that resonates with people that certain political issues are not important and do not matter.Over 90% registered to vote in the Scottish referendum. Over 80% voted . Our advice was simply unacceptable to the majority of our fellow workers. People wanted to have their say – Yes or No. Why?For the first time in a long time they felt they were part of the political process and what they thought and did counted.
Quote:What bugs me is that a spoiled vote – unless it were massively replicated – is not going to make a differance to the voting outcome.I recall the defenders of anarchist popularity could say that the third who abstained in elections were in practice anarchists even if practically it resulted in zero-political power shifting. Not voting was definitely apathy, no matter how you tried to frame it. Today we can look at the Sanders participation numbers (at least in the white population). People returning to electoral politics in droves. They too believing that what they do is of some importance, even if ultimately the Democratic machine will confirm their original choice. I do await just what the Sanderistas do when his challenge fails and fades. Is there going to be a real legacy of political organisation and resistance?After the referendum on Europe, what will be the "new" reality? Some speculate on a new right-wing dominance if Brexit prevails. But perhaps also the splintering of the Tories and the emasculation of UKIP, too?If the status-quo wins out…the status quo remains …nothing changes…Sadly, not any new international solidarity across Europe …certainly not welcoming open arms to EU migrant workers …mobility of labour will still be eaten away bit by bit.And the for nony -EU fellow workers, barriers just asstrong and reinforced, exactly in th same way the Leave camp will impose. No change there either.Anyway, all rather hypothetical to me…i don't have a vote in the referendum and if i return to the UK, despite UK nationality, i'm an incoming migrant to be excluded from all the social service welfare benefits for various time periods. In or Out, makes no difference to me. So i don't care how you all vote. Plague on both houses.
Quote:This comes of thinking that the growth of a socialist movement prior to the capture of political power can have no significant impact on the scope and extent of capitalist relations of production.I don't think that is what i am saying, Robbo
Quote:we cannot really treat the situation in isolation or see the revolution purely as a political process. Won't the pharmaceutical industry have developed an accompanying workers' association with the rise of socialism who will enforce the socialisation of drug production by being in control of production and distribution?my own emphasisi have also nit-picked a couple of flaws as i see it in the idea that we will permit the prices system to continue. Closer we come to the avalanche or snowball effect of socialist ideas, the more people will be asking questions and developing answers. Can we at this early stage offer satisfactory responses which i think was Kaz's point?I think we can imagine various scenarios and speculations that do not demand we are shoe-horned into fixed pre-determined futures.Perhaps we will all be given a sort of UBI swipe-card that instead of pounds have points which is determined upon needs less than upon contribution…(perhaps not even points when it comes to food but on calories and i'll use my allotment on several beers!!)……increased points for heating (or air-con) for elderly and frail or families with children. Unlimited baked beans but controlled access to sirloin steak. Who really knows since it will be locally based primarily although it will eventually develop into much wider coordination.As for carrying on capitalism, it is inevitable we will use Walmart/Tesco/Cargill/Big Ag supply and distribution chains as they have more or less proved efficient logistics in determining what and where and how much to produce. Although they fail miserably to monitor the how it is made such as the use of sweat-shop conditions and unsustainable use of raw materials. What will happen we will rationalise it by eliminating wasteful competition and duplication, often commencing at the source of the chain and not the shop-shelf. But what i fear is a sort of Red Army requisition of food-stuffs from small farmers who may not immediately see the advantage of anything more than simple cooperatives to aid production and still stick to some form of exchange payment…will we barter machinery for their harvest, for instance, and thus ensure the net harvest will be an even bumper one, that they start giving it away rather than see it spoil in the fields.I once taking a leave out of Pieter Lawrence blogged on what has proved possible in British capacity to feed itself http://mailstrom.blogspot.com/2011/06/war-communism.htmlWhere there is a will, there is a way
A two part article on helicoptering and UBIhttp://dissidentvoice.org/2016/05/basic-income-helicopter-money/http://dissidentvoice.org/2016/05/basic-income-international-experience/
Being such a sceptical cynic this article on a news website smacks to me of the "Empire Strikes Back" – a planted storyhttp://www.ipsnews.net/2016/06/its-time-to-tell-livestocks-untold-secret/But it does offer an alternative narrative to the usual and reinforces the case for a mixed farming future. 1.3 billion people depend on livestock for their livelihood, out of which approximately 0.6 billion are poor farmers.60% of agricultural GDP in some developing nations, and five of the six agricultural commodities that fetch the highest value come from livestock.Access to nutritious meat, milk and eggs goes a long way to improving vitamin deficiencies, the major cause of “hidden hunger” which is estimated to affect around two billion people.Tackling greenhouse gas emissions from livestock supply chains is another key priority of the Alliance. It is estimated that in many regions, this could be reduced by 20-30% by implementing best practices. For example, research is underway in India to produce animal feed that will generate less gas when digested by livestock. In Colombia and Costa Rica, feeding Brachiaria grass to animals has been shown reduce emissions from urine patches by 60%.The nutrient-rich manure can provide a low cost source of organic fertilizer for crops. It can even be used as renewable energy. Biogas produced from livestock manure is particularly suited to household use in many mixed crop-and-livestock production systems – which make up the largest category of animal production in the world – as it improves both soil conditions and household sanitation. Biogas digester systems capture and utilize methane directly, therefore limiting total greenhouse gas emissions from livestock.A safer, fairer and more sustainable livestock sector that can be a lifeline for rural farmers and an engine for growth in the developing world is within reach.
Quote:we can simply let the market continue to operate while we turn over significant sectors of the economy to social use.Can you put some meat on the bones of your argument? Does the NHS simply stop paying the pharmaceutical corporations for medicines? Then what? Again, we cannot really treat the situation in isolation or see the revolution purely as a political process.Won't the pharmaceutical industry have developed an accompanying workers' association with the rise of socialism who will enforce the socialisation of drug production by being in control of production and distribution?Or do we hold the idea that the State machine under instructions of…. hmmm…who exactly?…. Parliament or an actual government?…. will send in the armed forces to commandeer supplies. Again, to get from this UK-centric vision of socialist revolution, what if the factories are in foreign lands still in the throes of revolutionary upheaval where the socialists are not in strength to take possession of perhaps much-needed medicines? And building alternative production systems might take time. Will we invade? Or simply let people die from lack of effective medicine?
I was raising questions that may affect the style of our message, Kaz. I think it is a valid question.It relates to my oft-repeated suggestion that we could benefit from a propensity to be more descriptive in our projections. Who want to buy a pig in a poke…To paraphrase Andrew Neil …we are what we say we are on the tin…but shouldn't we also add ingredients to the name I remind you of one of my options in my original post that perhaps reflects your own concerns.
Quote:Or is our best bet is to present socialism in our propaganda in its fullest ideal state and leave the details of actual implementation to the generation that has that task? In other words, don't complicate our message and keep it simple.R-day (being revolution day?).
Quote:.hand out fiat currency to everyone to buy with, have markets based on goods' prices on R-day,I'm not sure of the impact of this perhaps being a World Revolution day might permit the unscrupulous to make a profit in that the R-day prices in the UK might be a lot more than the R-day prices here in Thailand …so would i quickly buy up goods here and send back in the UK to trade on the black-market?…And i think it was Brian Gardner who pointed out to Parecon, that organised crime is an enormous industry in itself, so perhaps my individual self seizing of an opportunity will be dwarved by container ships of goods being transferred to UK from places where the fiat price is a lot lower. We are a world market not just a domestic one…just a niggly thought at the back of my head,….
An interesting article on reforms being asked for in the US on the issue of voting such as the write-in vote. The U.S. Voters' Rights Amendment (USVRA)http://www.countercurrents.org/cox310516.htm
Nothing sinister.The latest post simply goes to the top or takes an existing thread back to the top. Automatic and nothing to do with any intentional interference. If you want your topic to remain at the top – keep updating it. But i rather you didn't do that unnecessarily because there are new topics that may well deserve to be the lead one for a while.
My apologies, Robbo. I was originally going to mention your point in my post, knowing your views on LETS etc but since i'm often accused of lacking brevity i deliberately did not mention your approach. I wanted to raise the question of the early days of socialism…and for the want of a better word since transitional carries too much of baggage …a hybrid system …socialism emerging from capitalism. The question of how long it lasts and to what extent is generally over-looked, especially if we consider the need for a world-wide approach in our priorities …eg as i am oft to mention, perhaps a reduction in what is known as cash-crops of un-essentials …coffee tea …so that developing regions can turn arable land to producing local food as well as improve working conditions in agriculture.Yes, i think the stronger we become, more we shall be implementing socialist ideas…not just in distribution of goods via voluntary associations but in leader-free organisations being created or rather existing structures being transformed etc, and for all their weaknesses, co-ops and for totally different reasons than tody's use – food-banks – to give away the produce and harvests of increasing allotments and city farms too etc.YMS, "Money Must Go' written by the Philoren duo was published shortly after the war when ration books were still in existence and i think they try to use it is an example of rational rationing.And of course these days it will not be ration books but swipe-cards already used for food-stamps (US) and refugees (UK)…which have the advantage of being able to easily update and amend as seen fit…for instance a boom harvest of tomatoes…or a failed crop of peaches…and of course simply collating and collecting data of demand. [Why not reprint it as a publish on demand book to add to our literature choice….a short new intro/preface and perhaps an appendix indicating where new technology can be applied is all that is needed. JonDWhite seems to be the only one who makes active use of this very simple way of producing books. The Party should increase its use of it.]
With the fluidity of the situation there i'm not surprised that they wanted cash-in-hand. People aren't stupid thinking that Makhno and his Insurgent Army would be a permanent feature. I certainly wouldn't have wanted "toy" money but what was the most popular money…Austro-Hingarian marks/shillings, what the Ukrainian Nationalist used and of course the Red Army roubles but best of all, goooooold money.
Very well said, JONDHis defence has always been that he was given evidence even though it turned out to be false evidence. He (and Campbell) denies he made weak evidence stronger although that was indeed what he did, omitting all the caveats and qualifications from intelligence reports…"sexed it up)What he also neglects to say is that he ignored other much more credible evidence, the most important at the time being Hans Blix reports that he had not found anything and needed more time to conduct more searches, just to be extra sure before reporting there was nothing to find. The article linked to claims that part of his defence was that he had not decided prior to the vote in Parliament to go to war. If the vote had gone against invasion as another later did with Cameron in Syria who backed down from a bellicose approach, would have Blair? All rather hypothetical because Blair with made-up and invented "facts" did convince the majority of MPs to support the Iraq war. That was what i meant when i said he will have a ready made army of apologists, guilty by association, because unlike a million who marched against war these politicians chose to be fooled by Blair's lies which were exposed by even the March vote for anyone willing to do the research. Their motives were far from upholding truth and genuine conviction but for careerism.When the Chilcot Report comes out, i predict some headlines and a flurry of opposing articles pro and anti-Blair. A week or so of that and it will be forgotten to become a footnote in history books. Blair's prestige and reputation will recover and he will continue ar he has – a ready source of quotes for the media and willing advisor to dictators seeking to improve their international PR…..OHHHH…how i detest that despicable man…Even Bush knows well enough to hide under a bush these days…but Blair…he has the affrontery to boast of his ignorance at the time as his excuse.
Quote:Apple and Samsung supplier Foxconn has let go of some 60,000 workers and replaced them with robots, according to reports. According to a government official quoted in the South China Morning Post, one of the factories run by the contract electronics manufacturer reduced its employee count from 110,000 to 50,000.http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36376966
