The Reformation and the Rise of the Nation State
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Interesting thread this. Should be turned into an article for the SS, I think
Relevant to this is the myth of the Puritan Separatists, called the Pilgrims, setting up a communist colony in North America, and failing woefully – thereby demonstrating in the uncritical minds of free marketeers that communism does not work and that we need a free market instead.
This article demolishes that argument comprehensively, though it is surprising how frequently one still comes across the argument on the internet
I don’t know anything about Max Weber.
France had to wait for its overthrow of the Ancien régime, but monarchical centralisation was completed by Richelieu and Mazarin in the 17th century. In England monarchical centralisation was achieved by the Tudors. There were different elements within the bourgeoisie. You don’t have feudalism on Tuesday and wake up to capitalism Wednesday morning.The English Civil War was the struggle of the elements of the bourgeoisie who were tired of the royal monopoly on trade and royal restrictions, as they saw it, on their profiteering. The French Revolution was the equivalent of this, but with the feudal aristocracy still a hindrance, though servile to the king. The aristocracy was filled with bourgeois upstarts from the time of Louis XIV, called noblesse de la robe. These married into families of the feudal aristocracy, the noblesse d’épée, to secure titles, and some of these were to share the fate of the king come the Revolution. Most of the bourgeoisie however, being the Third Estate, wanted the aristocracy’s hold on land and the state out of the way. Even so, 80% of the guillotined were labourers, only 6% aristocrats, and the rest men and women of letters and miscellaneous proletarians.
But France wasn’t “waiting”; it had different circumstances and disputes of its own. Its intervening century was alive with ideas and as vital as in England.
I never heard of the Mayflower gang being called communists!
They weren’t inclusive of anyone btw. They were persecuting and torturing each other and anyone different right from the start.The US exaggerates their importance ludicrously. They were by no means the first English settlers.
What is central to American puritanism via the “Pilgrims” is that they had the bigotry and prejudices of their European co-religionists but had removed themselves from the social realities of 17th century England and had exiled themselves to what they saw as a “barbarous wilderness” worthy of the Old Testament Prophets. Whereas English puritanism developed further into various social, non-religious movements, American puritanism remained biblical and produced the millenarian-evangelism of the US today.
The aristocracy may have held on to the state in France before its bourgeois POLITICAL REVOLUTION, but the Kingdom of France was not medieval. The noblesse d’épée, which was the element that was expropriated by the Revolution and which was unable to join it, was the impoverished section of the aristocracy, dependent on marriage with the noblesse de robe, who were haute bourgeoisie. France was already a capitalist and colonial power, still semi-feudal at home, but heavily invested in the African slave trade and global ventures.
I never heard of the Mayflower gang being called communists!
Oh, you will be surprised by the number of times this is done by “free market” libertarians, imagining in that fertile imagination of theirs that this constitutes decisive proof that “communism does not work”. LOL
Just a quick Google comes up with a long list. Just this one example will suffice:
https://www.heritage.org/markets-and-finance/commentary/pilgrims-beat-communism-free-market
TM – I’m surprised you’ve not come across this famous book by Max Weber: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism
Capitalism had been present a long time in the Catholic Mediterranean in a nascent form. Its birthplace was there.
Capitalism continued to grow in Catholic countries as well as Protestant, and the Catholic Church organised its own Reformation equipping it for a changing society.Protestant work ethic getting people doing things? Hadn’t people always been doing things? Doesn’t he mean robbing them to make them propertyless so that they have no option but to sell you their labour power?
The old clichéd view that it took capitalism to shock people alive and active and to wake from centuries of “medieval stagnation” is bourgeois crap.
TM – Where do you get all of your certainties from? You sound so dogmatic all of the time. History isn’t a science and nobody has a definitive description of human development, and probably never will, as new discoveries are being made all of the time. There are certain books that are relevant to certain debates and have to be discussed even if you disagree with them. You said yourself that Calvinism valued hard work and economic diligence and this is something Weber tried to explain in terms of the development of the Christian religion in Europe.
I don’t admire the “work ethic” and I don’t admire the bourgeoisie. Centuries since the Renaissance have pushed the narrative of the Renaissance and capitalism saving mankind from useless “medieval” (“a period of intermission”) centuries, but historians have learned much since that exposes this bourgeois progressivist narrative as false.
Google: ” The “Brilliant” or “Bright” Middle Ages (approx. 11th–14th centuries) refer to a vibrant, transformative era often overshadowed by the “Dark Ages” myth. It was characterized by intellectual rebirth, including the birth of universities, Gothic architecture, flourishing art, and significant technological innovations like eyeglasses, mechanical clocks, and printing.
English Heritage
English Heritage
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Key Aspects of the “Brilliant” Middle Ages:
The 12th-Century Renaissance: Far from being intellectually stagnant, this period saw a massive influx of classical learning. Works by Aristotle and other Greek thinkers were re-introduced to Europe through translation, often via Arab scholars, sparking philosophical debates.
The Rise of Universities: Knowledge moved from purely monastic settings to city schools, leading to the establishment of the first universities, including Bologna, Oxford, and Paris, which created a new class of intellectuals.
Invention and Innovation: Medieval ingenuity produced lasting technology, including mechanical clocks, spectacles, improved agricultural techniques, advancements in shipbuilding, and the introduction of paper, culminating in the printing press in the 1430s.
Artistic and Architectural Splendor: Gothic cathedrals arose across Europe, featuring innovative architecture (flying buttresses, stained glass) that combined religious devotion with engineering prowess.
Cultural Flourishing: Literature flourished in vernacular languages, moving beyond Latin to produce epic poetry like The Song of Roland, courtly romances, and later, masterworks like Dante’s Divine Comedy and Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales.
Urban Expansion: The High Middle Ages experienced economic growth, trade expansion, and the resurgence of cities, fostering a growing bourgeoisie or middle class, particularly in Italy and France.
catholic-link.org
catholic-link.org
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Key Periods of High Medieval Brilliance:
The High Middle Ages (c. 1000–1300): A period of stability, population growth, and the peak of the medieval “renaissance”.
The Norman Influence: The 11th century brought expansion and cultural exchange, from the Norman Conquest of England to connections with Sicily and the Mediterranean.
YouTube
YouTube
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Far from being dark, this era was a dynamic bridge that laid the foundations for the modern world through intellectual curiosity, artistic experimentation, and social change.
BBC
BBC
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Did You Know That the Middle Ages Were in Fact “Brilliant”? 8 …https://share.google/2JGZbEx7xecRAEI42 Dark Ages An Age of Light.
Life wasn’t in limbo for a millenium, waiting for protestantism and capitalism to give people reasons to live.
TM – Jeez, don’t you ever lighten up? Seriously when was the last time you made a joke? Your efforts at rehabilitating the medieval remind me of the historian Michael Wood who attempted to do the same for the ‘Dark Ages’ in Britain. Do you know the series, I loved it as a young man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlK9gyL6RFk&list=PL2vJ5Cg-wlPx8YFlffdCfHSGS9yOt9egz
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