Russian Tensions
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“I didn’t say Hitlerian, I said you followed the logic that Hitler did”
No, I did not. No one can claim that what is or is not logical is determined by Hitler’s utterances. Fighting against injustice is logical. If Hitler made sounds consistent with that, what of it?
“That is, the logic of Nationalism and capitalist expansionism. You stated that you agreed with that logic, with those exact words.”
My gosh, you are dim. Those words, when expressed in the context of the Russia Ukraine conflict, I do agree with. Let’s try a little experiment. “I will kill you if you do that”. Now that is a quite unreasonable thing for a parent to say to a child who decides they want to eat your cookie. It is contemptable. But it is not an unreasonable thing to say to a madman with an axe threatening to swing it at an infant. Indeed, if you had the power to do so and did not kill the madman mid swing (assuming one could not subdue him in any other way) then you are contemptable. Does your smooth brain compute how context matters? Now, do you see how your little “trick” was juvenile and pathetic?
So child, answer my question. What is one to do when “workers” go rampaging about slaughtering the innocent.
“Anyway, Nostradamus, back in February you stated that Bakhmut would fall “within days, if not hours”. Still confident about your impeccable sources?”
Lol. The town is completely encircled. The Ukrainian defenders, as I’d predicted, are doomed. So I got the date wrong. Big whoop.
“What is one to do when “workers” go rampaging about slaughtering the innocent.”
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The thing is this is EXACTLY what BOTH sides in this sordid capitalist war are doing and yet you are asking us to support the imperialist Russian side against Ukraine and its imperialist backers. Socialists don’t support capitalist warlords like Putin or Zelensky. War itself brutalises people and turns them into fascists. In the name of a putrid nationalism, deluded workers give their lives to the cause of their respective capitalist ruling classes
What is one to do? The only thing any decent human being would want to do. Stop the war and urge the combatants on both sides – fellow members of the working class – to lay down their arms. There are indications that significant numbers of Russian soldiers are questioning the very purpose of their mission in Ukraine. Good. The same needs to be happening on the Ukraine side. The utter stupidity of fighting for the right to plant a particular flag on a particular patch of land needs to be made crystal clear.
Socialists can’t do much against the overwhelming forces of national chauvinism and reactionary capitalism but at least what we are doing makes sense. Your recipe, on the other hand, will ensure that a legacy of hatred towards fellow workers who happen to live under another capitalist regime to yours will endure for generations. Wars don’t solve problems. They create them
“The thing is this is EXACTLY what BOTH sides in this sordid capitalist war are doing”
Actually, no. That’s not what they’re “both” doing. The Russians are engaged in warfare against the army of a fascist regime. The army of a fascist regime, unfortunately including the unlucky conscripts, is not “innocent”. It is the instrument of fascist violence and oppression. Resisting such a force is one’s duty. Unless, of course, you’re physically unable or a coward.
“and yet you are asking us to support the imperialist Russian side against Ukraine and its imperialist backers.”
I’m not asking you to do anything. I’m merely calling balls and stripes.
“Socialists don’t support capitalist warlords like Putin or Zelensky.”
Putin is not a “capitalist warlord”. He is the president of the Russian Federation.
“War itself brutalises people and turns them into fascists.”
Brutalises, perhaps, turns into fascists? Malarkey.
“In the name of a putrid nationalism, deluded workers give their lives to the cause of their respective capitalist ruling classes”
In the name of nationalism the deluded worker killed the madman threatening the infant with an axe. Erm, no. Stopping he madman with the axe is always the right thing to do.
“What is one to do? The only thing any decent human being would want to do. Stop the war and urge the combatants on both sides – fellow members of the working class – to lay down their arms.”
How? They have artillery, missiles, tanks aircraft and machine guns. They’re the Waffen SS. They’re on a tear. How you gonna stop them? “Urging”? Tell me, how you gonna urge the Waffen SS to stop? Serious question.
“There are indications that significant numbers of Russian soldiers are questioning the very purpose of their mission in Ukraine.”
Rubbish. Provide a link. Nothing sourced to Ukraine or western MSM is acceptable.
“The same needs to be happening on the Ukraine side. The utter stupidity of fighting for the right to plant a particular flag on a particular patch of land needs to be made crystal clear.”
How you gonna “urge” the Waffen SS to stop slaughtering? Try it. See what happens. You’ll either be shot, beheaded, thrown in a barn and burned alive, put in a gas chamber or worked to death in a concentration camp. Geez, who’d have thought “urging” the Waffen SS to stop their rampage wouldn’t have worked out? You really are a clown.
“Socialists can’t do much against the overwhelming forces of national chauvinism and reactionary capitalism but at least what we are doing makes sense.”
Lol. Not only are you not a socialist but you’re not actually doing anything. You’re British, go lay down on the road in front of the depleted uranium factory. No? I thought not. You’re all talk, no walk.
“Your recipe, on the other hand, will ensure that a legacy of hatred towards fellow workers who happen to live under another capitalist regime to yours will endure for generations. Wars don’t solve problems.”
Actually, they do solve problems. Defeating the Waffen SS in battle is the only way you can actually stop their rampage. The application of violence does solve problems. Just as it’s the only way to stop the mad man with the axe hewing the infant in two. Tell me how I’m wrong. This should be good, I have popcorn.
True Nazi states- “ Resisting such a force is one’s duty. Unless, of course, you’re physically unable or a coward.”
If True Nazi is implying that his lack of action is on the basis of his physical inability, then his ongoing slurs against people who may have disabilities is even more jaw droppingly crass.
True Nazi’s explanation of why he support’s statements made by Hitler is as weak as piss.
Having had 4 weeks nearly to contemplate his response all he has come up with is “If Hitler made sounds consistent with that, what of it?”
He then goes on to make an analogy which harks back to the “rape of Belgium” argument to support making war. That argument, didn’t hold water in 1914 and it doesn’t hold water now.
It also doesn’t distract that True Nazi supported EXACTLY the same argument Hitler did to explain his annexation of the Sudetenland, to support Putin’s annexation of the Donbas. That is that the annexation was necessary to maintain peace and to stop the oppression of elements of the population of those areas. Both Putin and Hitler used this argument as a cloak for their real war aims, territorial expansion, military/strategic advantage and conquest of resources (in Hitler’s case the Czech arms industry and other industrial resources and in Putin’s case the mineral and industrial resources of the Donbas)
I’m afraid, True Nazi, if you walk like a Nazi, swim like a Nazi and quack like a Nazi, the chances are you’re a Nazi. You’ve passed the duck test with flying colours.
“It also doesn’t distract that True Nazi supported EXACTLY the same argument Hitler did”
Argumentum ad Hitlerium logical fallacy. You rally are a tool. Lol
If a socialist found the Scotsman raping his (the socialist’s) mother/sister/granny/brother (not necessarily in that order), would the socialist
(a) reason with the Scotsman he was showing a woeful lack of class-consciousness?
Or
(b) bray him with a handy length of four by two?
The answer is (of course?) (b).
Not a new ‘argument’. Pacifists and socialists (who are not pacifist) have to meet it whenever capitalist rivalries turn ugly. ‘Drop the naive class stuff and get stuck in with whatever side excites you’.
If the Scotsman found a Russian soldier raping a ‘nazi’ (using the word practically in it’s Japanese sense) (might be Waffen SS might not), the only consistent course open to the Scotsman would be to
(c) Join in.
You can attempt to unpack the thinking until the proverbial dairy-farm reunion but as a logician himself the Scotsman will confirm the reasoning is impeccable. What it might tell us about his moral qualities, well…that is essentially a Viennese question it would be unseemly to go in to.In using the “Argumentum ad Hitlerium” card you’ve actually made the fool out of yourself.
The fallacy you describe only applies to superficial similarities to the views/actions of Hitler. In the case I cited, you offered support to ideas which were fundamental to Hitler’s ideology, i.e. Lebensraum and German Irredentism. The analogy I made between Hitler’s logic (and by extension yours) and the logic that Putin has used to justify his war, is anything but trivial. Another strong similarity between Nazism and your views is your celebration and manifest glee at the thought of human beings being turned into fertiliser, is that another example of Argumentum ad Hitlerum? I think not.
What is arguably a more vaild demonstration of “Argumentum ad Hitlerum” is however your ongoing assertion that the regime in the Ukraine is a “Nazi Regime”, which is curious, given that Zelensky is Jewish.
I think you need to go back to your “Logic for Dummies” book and read it rather than just looking at the pretty pictures.
“Actually, no. That’s not what they’re “both” doing. The Russians are engaged in warfare against the army of a fascist regime. The army of a fascist regime, unfortunately including the unlucky conscripts, is not “innocent”. It is the instrument of fascist violence and oppression. Resisting such a force is one’s duty. Unless, of course, you’re physically unable or a coward.”
___________________________________If Ukraine is a fascist regime then so too is Russia. There is little to choose between them. They are both repellent, right-wing authoritarian oligarchies.
There are, of course, fascists involved in the Ukraine war but they can be found on both sides of the conflict. Indeed there is a strong case for saying that Putin himself (and certainly that nutjob Medvedev, his sidekick) is a fascist or a fascist sympathiser, soft on fascism. Putin´s ideological mentor is Iván Aleksándrovich Ilyín – a promoter of “Russian Christian fascism”. See this fascinating youtube video
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“Putin is not a “capitalist warlord”. He is the president of the Russian Federation.”
—————————————He is both. He is a capitalist parasite and represents the interest of the Russian capitalist parasite class. Here´s a random link about his (mostly hidden) wealth
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“In the name of nationalism the deluded worker killed the madman threatening the infant with an axe. Erm, no. Stopping he madman with the axe is always the right thing to do.”
—————————-Your analogy is laughable and asinine. A more accurate description would be two axe-wielding mad men trying to kill each other, each caring nothing about the fate of the random infant who happens to have gotten in the way
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“How? They have artillery, missiles, tanks aircraft and machine guns. They’re the Waffen SS. They’re on a tear. How you gonna stop them? “Urging”? Tell me, how you gonna urge the Waffen SS to stop? Serious question.”
—————————————-Serious question. Which side are you talking about? The Russian military or the Ukrainian military? It could be either by your logic.
I don’t pretend there is much that can be done under the present circumstances given the extent to which workers on both sides have succumbed to the putrid and disgusting ideology of nationalism. Socialists are few in number. We have little influence. But the socialist approach of refusing to fight in capitalism´s wars is still the ONLY approach that makes any sense. “Armed struggle” is just a recipe for tens or even hundreds of thousands of our fellow workers getting killed. Is that what you call a “solution”? Also, armed struggle is no way to eliminate fascism. If anything it breeds a fascist mentality in all but name
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“Actually, they do solve problems. Defeating the Waffen SS in battle is the only way you can actually stop their rampage. The application of violence does solve problems. ”
…………BS. The Waffen SS may have been defeated in battle but has the ideology it espoused disappeared? No, it has not. Right-wing ultra-nationalism is alive and well. Oddly enough you claim Ukraine is a fascist regime. How could that possibly have come about if fascism was defeated in the second world war?
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““There are indications that significant numbers of Russian soldiers are questioning the very purpose of their mission in Ukraine.”Rubbish. Provide a link. Nothing sourced to Ukraine or western MSM is acceptable.”
……………………https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-war-the-wives-left-behind-by-russian-deserters/a-63568056
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-searching-soldiers-abandoning-war-en-masse-ukraine-1769993
More on the relationship between Putin and his fascist mentor, Iván Aleksándrovich Ilyín…..
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/26/how-fascist-are-putins-views
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