Extinction Rebellion
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Here is a history of the quote and all its variations.
The Capitalists Will Sell Us the Rope with Which We Will Hang Them
Maybe the truth of the matter is that capitalists will first sell us the t-shirt
Alan, that last post is so depressing- on face value!
T-shirts we buy… and then we move on to the next popular and transitory capital inspired message of the disaffected…
The current sit in is a Great et al protest to the ruling elite, and it has been met by pepper spray- very noble. But it is the fashion, and changes little over time (it is: hear me, and then I will go away).
Socialism is a long term goal state and I have been confronted by the forum activities here- personal change agency, that ‘changed my mind” on many things. We could have projectors with slogans pop up- but then it is a pop up: momentary and appealing to the temporal idea.
What happens here is not pop up- but life idea changing… and meeting (e-meeting) on the SP forum is effective and credit is well due- You did not sell me a t-shirt: but you made an idea worth wearing, worth holding, worth wearing!
I don’t go to work with the red shirt/flag, but I talk about the social- it is in those personal connections, networks and whisper campaigns that socialism becomes effective- as well as others seeing our values alloy with our behaviors…
So a positive- what the SP are doing is working… and its effects on peoples’ views are lifelong.
I want the t-shirt- but not from that vendor- it needs to be free, and accepted for free.
It would be good to see a projector though, up on the palace with the website and flag!
L.B
I don’t go to work with the red shirt/flag, but I talk about the social- it is in those personal connections, networks and whisper campaigns that socialism becomes effective- as well as others seeing our values alloy with our behaviors…
Very well put LB ! You might be interested in this project
I don’t go to work with the red shirt/flag, but I talk about the social- it is in those personal connections, networks and whisper campaigns that socialism becomes effective- as well as others seeing our values alloy with our behaviors…
That is precisely how I first became acquainted with the notion of socialism entailing the abolition of the wages system, in a hurried conversation at a fellow worker’s lathe.
I had to wait a few years before more before I could investigate it further, once I was told of an outdoor meeting in Glasgow that my brother had stumbled upon while waiting upon his girlfriend finishing her work.
I was not knowing where to look, or how to look, but he knew I was interested because of my trade union activity and so on, but I was dissatisfied with the then Labour government’s delivery of what I had thought was a kind of ‘socialism’.
Nowadays the information is available online.
Another somewhat negative take on ER but again it is difficult to make generalisations….
I wish members would check the source of some of the stuff they put up here. The author of the link above, Frances Leader, is a conspiracy theorist and anti-Semite. This is clear from the link itself.
Here’s the conspiracy stuff:
https://steemit.com/life/@francesleader/agenda-2030-no-escape
And here’s the anti-Semitism: a picture of Theodor Herzl with this printed over it:
“We will lead every revolution against us Zionist Theodor Herzl”
And this.
She also seems to believe that global warming is caused by geoengineering.
In short, she’s an utter nutter whose views on Extinction Rebellion (and everything else) are completely worthless.
Linking to stuff like this only undermines our own credibility.
Activists who took part in the Extinction Rebellion protests have announced they will stand in the European elections on a “climate emergency” ticket.
Under the name Climate Emergency Independents, nine candidates will stand in the 23 May polls – seven in London and two in south-west England region.XR said it had signed up 30,000 new backers or volunteers in the past two weeks and raised almost £200,000, mostly in donations of between £10 and £50, reaching a total of £365,000 since January.
I wish members would check the source of some of the stuff they put up here. The author of the link above, Frances Leader, is a conspiracy theorist and anti-Semite. This is clear from the link itself.
Hi Adam, I wasn’t endorsing what Frances Leader says nor should it be construed as such. I was just posting it out of interest and to prompt comment Oddly enough she has some vocal supporters on my local FB Group here in Spain and there is a furious row raging between them and supporters of ER at the moment The information you have provided will be very useful from that point of view
“That is precisely how I first became acquainted with the notion of socialism entailing the abolition of the wages system, in a hurried conversation at a fellow worker’s lathe.”
This is how it happens: we feel something is wrong with the fairness; and we feel the oppression of our position… and then we question our environment… and then someone says a thing about it- and we are interpolated!
It separates us from from what was once ‘known and familiar’ and we seek a new ‘possible to know- and new familiar’, and the lathe worker is my history too- but selling wines as a hungry student.
There it is- and the internet is an extension of those epiphanies, it will not replace them for human to human contact- but it is important.
I can be like a stopped clock- right but twice a day- and “what the” for the other hours!
We get it wrong and okay- but we debate.
Hope you are all well,
L.B
Hi Robbo, I read the link.
Words are the fundamentals of chat- we are social beings, and our chat/language underpins it.
Our day to day conversations and how we behave is a flag, and it separates us from the capital overlords and the Stalins who have taken so much away.
Words can promote negative stereotypes. And at times those not familiar with socialism can be confronted by the media scare archetype: ‘hang’, ‘war’ ,’them’ and so on. It paints a picture that wrongly defines us… revolution and rope. We are not that: we are liberation- and we take many forms, sharing the same centre: far from talk of ropes.
Many socialists I know, and who encouraged me, even here, are goodly people. We are not atypical- we are sensible and sociable (not pre-social at all).
I appreciate your ability to raise conversation… and encourage debate.
Imagine introducing someone to socialism as ropes swinging from lamp posts- they would run the other way! Imagine the opposite: an end to the history of struggle!
One more thing, on the link Robbo gave me I tried to add to a debate, and read Matthew’s and Alan’s contributions in conversation with glover.
Does Glover really thing it, but I responded:
Glover: Hi all, well well well if ther is one thing that brings joy to my hart other than BREXIT
is to get a crowed of champagne socialist hot under the collar, to read the emails telling me off, has given me and friends some greet fun, the thing we all agree with is you just dont get it ! your emails sound like a preacher giving a sermon in a pulpit, you say your pamphlets get the message across perfectly clear, well you would do wouldent you, have ever heard of the saying horses for courses , put it to the acid test, give some of your pamphlets to friends who are not part of your political scene and ask them to read them, then ask them to give you a a honest appraisal, come on show me that you have the balls.
l would very much like to hear ther views. kind regards rod glover
Anonymous said… Which is me L.B.
The working class have narratives and opinions- they are not empty vessels- Locke might say no, but look at the control, alienation, and ignorance he has woven about us.
We are full of ideas, of culture, and more- we have life and meaning in spite of power over ideas putting a boot in our faces, calling us small and empty. I agree with Matt, it is not his high horse- it is the waft of BS that says we are vessel needing to be filled- I am full of meaning, and socialism supports me.
L.BAnonymous said… and me again:
Glover, Is this debate going to help- you seem so angry, like that man in Canada: Patterson. This division is not good for socialism- and the reality is, we can read the pamphlets, and we need credit for being able to read and spell a little.
I was not part of the political scene Alan and Matt are- until recently… but they have been understandable, and encouraging.
Contribute to the debate, leave division to the capital agenga- no insulting the common cause.
Be kind and not cruel,
L.BIn my rushed state of responding, I have miss spellings too- but I own them!
But if you click on the link Robbo sent me, you will see the SP do its best- and without anger.
Matt responds:
The cheek of you. I’ve been active in working classpolitical activity for over 45 years. There is no such social class as the ‘middle class’.They became the capitalist class absorbing the aristocracy etc.
If someone HAS TO work for a wage or a salary they are working class, however well paid they may seem. Even if they send young Dimkins to private school and own, probably a mortgaged piece of property and have ‘notions of upperosity’. They are three salary checks away fom a foodbank..
The majority of people must sell their ability to work in return for a wage or salary (who we refer to as the working class.)
Capitalism is the social system which now exists in all countries of the world. Under this system, the means for producing and distributing goods (the land, factories, technology, transport system etc) are owned by a small minority of people. We refer to this group of people as the capitalist class.
If someone does NOT HAVE TO work for a wage or a salary, because of their ownership of resources as above, in stocks shares or inherited wealth, although they may choose to do so, they are members of the capitalist class.
The working class are paid to produce goods and services which are then sold for a profit. The profit is gained by the capitalist class because they can make more money selling what we have produced than we cost to buy on the labour market. In this sense, the working class are exploited by the capitalist class. The capitalists live off the profits they obtain from exploiting the working class whilst reinvesting some of their profits for the further accumulation of wealth.This is what we mean when we say there are two classes in society. It is a claim based upon simple facts about the society we live in today. This class division is the essential feature of capitalism. It may be popular to talk (usually vaguely) about various other ‘classes’ existing such as the ‘middle class’, but it is the two classes defined here that are the key to understanding capitalism.
It may not be exactly clear which class some relatively wealthy people are in. But there is no ambiguity about the status of the vast majority of the world’s population. Members of the capitalist class certainly know who they are. And most members of the working class know that they need to work for a wage or salary in order to earn a living (or are dependent upon somebody who does, or depend on state benefits.)
Matthew, thanks.
What does this have to do with ER? It is that this shows that Socialism once born, stays with you: thick and thin- and if someone, like Glover, responds with hate and putdowns, then would you listen to him, or to members of SP, and their similar!
Glover, I would like to say to you in response to “show me some balls”- here I am, and I can read and do not need to be fed by the reader.
Thanks, and sorry for the long post,
L.B.
“…Extinction Rebellion speakers should stop using “hippy” language because it is watering down the message about climate change, supporters of the group have said….”
A sign of their success and potential…a back-handed compliment?
“…We know shale gas can be extracted safely. We have the best regulations and regulators in the world. We know the positive impact it has on local communities, but we are choosing to listen to a powerful environmental lobby campaigning against fracking rather than allowing science and evidence to guide our policy making…We are listening to a small but loud environmental movement that opposes in principle all extraction of fossil fuels,” Engel wrote. “The campaign against fracking has been highly successful in raising the profile and filling the coffers of some NGOs, but they do not represent local residents nor the wider population…I hope there will be a rethink sooner rather than later which will see policy guided by science, rather than fear-mongering…”
Extinction Rebellion are almost as typical as they are difficult for socialists. Theres no doubt they’ve raised awareness, and money , but ultimately their stance seems to be for “leaders to do more” and to “declare a climate emergency”. I’m not really sure what they mean by “system change not climate change” and I’m sure neither are they. All in all its a question of whether the awareness they are raising is the right message.
Their decision to stand as independents shows the anarchist theoretical underpinnings of environmentalism, aka the avoidance of being in “a party”. As they aren’t a party though, does this mean SPGB members can engage with them, or even vote for their candidates if there are no better options (this is not a question raised as I want to, its just a question of parties v social movements. Excuse any ignorance, my member pack still needs to be collected from the local royal mail depot).
Another point I’d make though is about the bourgeoise separation of social disciplines. It appears XR may be doing an ok job of making the environment a political issue, but political issues are only the whole too “politicised”, that is seperated from their economic and structural context. Without Marx it’s hard to challenge this, and this is where XR are limited. I suppose it’s all about how we try to tap some of this energy, sadly I think a lot of the donations they have received are akin to donations to UNICEF.
James
IMHO, our hostility clause does not apply to campaigning groups such as ER. I view them as I see trade unions, a much needed counter-weight to the actions of the capitalist class.
From what I have read, they are very much the same as Occupy was, amorphous, and our criticism of movements such as those are reflected in Jo Freedman’s Tyranny of Structurelessness, an analysis which the Party often commends
https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm
I have no difficulty with any member being directly involved in this protest movement, either as close observer or actual participant, just as long as she or he, remains critical of the ER reform proposals and presents the socialist case in discussions and conversations.
If we do not interact with those who genuinely believe they are opposing the status quo, we won’t be reaching a potential member. The level of involvement I leave to the judgement of individual members, the composition and attitudes of a ER group in Wakefield may be very different from the one in Warrington.
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