November 29, 2023 at 4:00 pm #248751robbo203Participant
Some information on different Jewish ethnic groups:
Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews
It would seem that some Jewish folk have a rather racist attitude towards other Jews. Would that be antisemitic?November 29, 2023 at 7:36 pm #248753MooParticipant
Thanks for that interesting article, Robbo.
It just goes to show that we’re all humans living on planet earth. Imagine explaining the State of Israel & the Palestinian territories (or any other war) to a group of aliens visiting this world!November 30, 2023 at 4:30 am #248760
I have seen Palestinians, Iranian and Arabs children asking for the total elimination and killing of all the Jews and to blow up Israel,
During the war of Iran there were US children and adults asking for the total elimination of the Iraqis and the peoples from Afghanistan and calling them animal walking in two feet
As we have indicated thousands of times, all human behaviors are socially learned, and Marx indicated in the Communist Manifesto: That the prevailing ideas in any class society are the prevailing ideas of the ruling class, which is also called ideology, and Engels called it false consciousness.
In several forum I read some messages published by Cubans right wingers in public forums asking the USA to drop atomic bombs in Cuba, and a Cuban librarian said: The wind is in our favor because it is going to blow toward Florida and it will spread the atomic ashes and all of you are going to die
Some US senator want the US government to shoot rockets, and missiles and to initiate an invasion toward Mexico in order to eliminate the drugs traffics, but Pablo Escobar who was an allied to Reagan several years ago said: If I have customers and consumers and I will continue producing cocaines and heroines, and it is one of the business of capitalism, and he was one of its CEO
The capitalist class is specialists in spreading hates among human beings, and during the times of war, hates, revenge and conspiracy theory are spread all over, as they say: When the shit hits the fan it spread all overNovember 30, 2023 at 1:13 pm #248764
Until your dream world arrives, suffice to proclaim what is much more likely to be attainable: from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!November 30, 2023 at 3:30 pm #248766ALBKeymaster
Are you sure? Both will require a change of consciousness. We envisage people coming to want socialism and do our bit to try to hasten this.
You have to convince the Jewish population of Israel to dissolve the state of Israel into a single Palestine state. You fancy your chances of being able to achieve that?
Unless, that is, you envisage imposing this by force of arms. In that case don’t forget that the Jewish Nationalists have the Bomb. That’s a recipe for more slaughter on an industrial scale.
To tell the truth, what you propose seems the least likely and most unrealistic outcome under capitalism. And of course, if you achieve it, with or without war, a Palestine ruling class would be “free”, but the vast majority of the people living between the river and the sea wouldn’t be, any more than in any of the existing Arab states. In fact, if Hamas has anything to do with it, they‘d be living under an Islamic dictatorship in addition to being economically exploited.November 30, 2023 at 5:24 pm #248771
And of course, if you achieve it, with or without war, a Palestine ruling class would be “free”, but the vast majority of the people living between the river and the sea wouldn’t be.
Freedom is a relative term and most Palestinians would regard any improvement in their living conditions worthwhile compared with the 75 years of oppression at the hands of the Israeli state.
Previous campaigns to eradicate Palestinian movements have not only generally failed, but as a rule enhanced their stature. The scale of the current onslaught has catapulted Hamas’ stature to unprecedented levels among Palestinians, and indeed among Arabs and in the Global South more generally. That’s not a challenge that can be resolved by a fleet of F-35s armed with tons of high explosives.
Israel’s extraordinary self-regard and capacity for self-glorification notwithstanding, the elimination of Hamas is a non-starter, least of all at the hands of the thoroughly mediocre Israeli military and intelligence capabilities as revealed on 7 October.
And, lest you forget, capitalism is the only game in town.
It’s a bitter pill to swallow, I know.November 30, 2023 at 6:43 pm #248774
Freedom is not a relative conception, it is an absolute term because it can only be achieved when we eliminate wage slavery and capitalism, we are not free, even more capitalist are not free either. It is only a legal illusion, and constitutions were created by the ruling class for the ruling class, the so called government for the peoples is a false illusion too, and there is not any relationship between government, freedom and democracy
We are living under a system of wage slavery, and its extension is even larger than classical slavery due to the natural expansion of capitalism around the whole world, our only choice and freedom is to be able to elect our own master, the classical slave did not have that privilege, we have the freedom to elect our own governors, we are slaves as the Palestinian and the Israeli
American natives lived in complete freedom because they did not have wage slavery, a state apparatus, policemen, courts system, and they have common possession of the means of production, and they lived in peace and harmony for many centuries, even more it was a period longer than ours,as well, Muslim, Jews and Christian lived more than 900 years in peace and Harmony
Palestinian and Israeli, and Arabs are not free either and they will not be free even if they establish a new state apparatus because it is a system for oppression by one ruling class, the so-called relative freedom will be obtained by their own ruling class, they will not be complete free, they would be under the attack of other ruling class more powerful than them
Palestinian, Israeli and Arabs do not own any lands, they are not real estate owners, their slogan from sea to land will not be obtained either, as well the promised lan is not going to be obtained either, it would require a regional war among nations, and either one do not have the proper military forces to do that, on the contrary, the US military might take the whole region in order to defend their interest and keep the natural resources, as some groups have said that this the Israel 9/11 and the USA might do the same thing that they did in Iraq
This world is controlled by the market system, it is not controlled by romantic ideas, even more, the capitalist can not control their own market system, the market system control them, and capital is one of their own enemies therefore, they are not free either, probably they would obtain more freedom in a socialist society without the existence of capital, without capitalists and market.
Capitalism was considered a utopian society and now it is a world economy, and it is not a natural economy system as socialism, and it will not be an economic system either, it would be social production like primitive communism. Fidel Castro who was a reformer of capitalism said that a new world is possible to be established
November 30, 2023 at 6:56 pm #248776ALBKeymaster
- This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by Almamater.
Well, if you are thinking in terms of capitalism being the only game in town, the most realistic way to end the oppression of Palestinians by the Israeli state is the so-called “two-state” solution.
In other words, from the river to the pre-1967 border between Israel and Jordan (the West Bank has only been ruled and its population politically oppressed by Israel since 1967, ie 56 not 75 years; before that it was part of Jordan and ruled by the King of Jordan). That seems to be what the Powers want.
If you believe in playing the only games in town, why don’t you support it too as that’s what it seems to be, instead of propagandising for what you consider to be the ideal arrangement?November 30, 2023 at 7:28 pm #248777
And the oppression would be transferred directly to the Palestinian ruling class, and Palestinian under a new nation-state would not be free either. The domination and oppression of the Palestinians have been longer under the Arabs ruling class than the Israeli ruling class. Palestine is just a sub division of the Ottoman Empire, and still they have kept the labor law of the Ottoman EmpireNovember 30, 2023 at 10:45 pm #248785james19Participant
Begin took the money for Nobel Peace Prize in 1978 and then 4 years later presided over the bombing of Beirut. I don’t think they asked him to pay it back.
Damn, I missed this. I could have used it to reply.
I will try to look for the tweet about Begin winning Nobel Peace Prize? Oh well.December 1, 2023 at 8:23 am #248792
In other words, from the river to the pre-1967 border between Israel and Jordan (the West Bank has only been ruled and its population politically oppressed by Israel since 1967, ie 56 not 75 years
I bet the Palestinians will be delighted to hear that! But I’m not just referring to the West Bank but to Gaza as a whole.
There has been a consistent pattern to Israel’s behaviour since its creation 75 years ago – just as there has been a consistent pattern to the “see no evil, hear no evil” response of western powers.
In 1948, in events the Palestinians call their “Nakba”, or Catastrophe, 80 percent of Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from their lands in what became the self-declared Jewish state of Israel.
As Palestinians maintained at the time – and Israeli historians later confirmed from archival documents – Israel’s leaders lied when they said Palestinians had fled of their own volition, on the orders of neighbouring Arab states.
As the historians also discovered, Israeli leaders lied when they claimed that they had pleaded, first, with the 900,000 Palestinians inside the new state’s borders to stay and, later, with the 750,000 forced into exile to return home.
Rather, the archives showed that the new Israeli state’s soldiers had carried out terrible massacres to drive out the Palestinian population. The overall ethnic cleansing operation had a name, Plan Dalet.December 1, 2023 at 12:25 pm #248808Bijou DrainsParticipant
“from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!”
Will that be the same kind of freedom that the Irish workers who gave their life for “freedom” got?
Will it be like Cosgrave’s Ireland, who said “I am not going to hesitate if the country is to live, and if we have to exterminate ten thousand Republicans” and then executed more republicans than the British, 77 as opposed to 14.
Will it be the kind of freedom that both Cosgrave and De Valera used to surpress workers’ wages and supress trades unions.
Will it be a state which uses religion to send unmarried mothers to the Magdalene laundries and then sell those of their children who survived to rich Americans. They’re still fishing out the bodies of the dead babies hidden in Tuam.
Or will it be the kind of freedom that Zimbabwean workers fought and died for, mass exterminations of thousands of Ndebele, mass inflation and the enrichment of a new capitalist ruling class?
Be careful what you wish for
December 1, 2023 at 2:46 pm #248813
- This reply was modified 2 months, 4 weeks ago by Bijou Drains.
Indians have been living under oppression and domination for more than 500 years, and more than 75 millions have been killed, and the killing continue, thousands of Indians women disappear every year and they lost two continents and several islands. They have created the so called Indians nations and they are still living under domination, oppression and exploitation. All nationalists analysis are based on false premisesDecember 1, 2023 at 7:23 pm #248823james19Participant
Comedian talking about
White Australians at a Free Palestine
demonstration calling for Israel to give the back land?
A few naughty words towards the end racist about Australian indigenous people.December 1, 2023 at 8:05 pm #248824
The Orinoco basin which belonged to the Warao peoples has been taken over by Russian and Chinese capitalists to extract minerals for the modern industry, fertile land for agriculture, water and oil, that area has more wealth than Gaza, and the original natives are not getting anything from them, and they are living in poverty and displacement, and there are Russian Paramilitary to avoid rebellions. Some left wigs groups support that because they also support the nationalist government of Venezuela. and they are forming a cartel known as BRICS. All states are just the representatives of a ruling class, and all human beings around the world are exploited by the capitalists and they are not free, freedom in this society is only a legal illusion, the same thing as the so called human rights
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