50 Years Ago – Sir Keith Joseph meets the SPGB

Philippa Fawcett College 24th April 1975. The debate was held during the afternoon and was attended by about 250 people, mainly students.

Sir K. Joseph: The Market system is based on the proposition you only make a profit if you make and sell what people want. If you do not make what people want, you do not make a profit. This means widespread decision-making, decentralized control spread among thousands of small, medium and large firms. (…) How do we justify the vast profits of property? Somebody had to take the risk. The only justification for profit is risk. Civil servants’ decisions do not have to be right, they do not stand to lose. The Market system leaves decision-making to those who stand to gain if the decision is right and stand to lose if the decision is wrong. Look at Switzerland: we could be as prosperous and humane.

E. Hardy: Tories, Liberals and the Labour Party all believed in Keynes. Keynes said Marx was wrong. Capitalism can be controlled. You can have full employment, no more crises or wars. The Market economy is unregenerate capitalism given a new name. They have not got capitalism under control. They have not solved unemployment. We are now in a crisis. (…) We do not say civil servants can run capitalism better than the whiz-kids. Nothing can be done with capitalism; if you will not go in for Socialism, you will be stuck with capitalism. It will be the same in the future as it always has been in the past.

Summing up

Sir Keith Joseph: How simple it is to argue for a system that is purely emotional. Mr. Hardy is arguing for pie in the sky. You cannot get all people in the world to agree. Marx left no room for the owner, who is part of the productive mechanism, because of his willingness to take risks to ensure supply in the Market system. The investment occurs to give people what they need.

E. Hardy: Sir Keith Joseph has to defend the shocking system of capitalism. Capitalism was only a notion when it began. All the reformers have tried to be practical and improve capitalism. They have solved nothing. The utopians are the ones who think they can do something with capitalism. You can’t, you have to go in for Socialism.

This is an abridged report of the debate. You can hear the tape recording of the debate here.

(Socialist Standard, June 1975)

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