Trump as president again?

February 2025 Forums General discussion Trump as president again?

Viewing 15 posts - 151 through 165 (of 181 total)
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  • #256529
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    ” Stop talking shite.”

    Vulgar, aren’t you? And you expect people to want to join us?

    Tell the workers we need to stop identifying with the nation, and see what you get.

    #256531
    paula.mcewan
    Moderator

    #256532
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant

    I do not think that Fascism is going to be established in the USA, or in any established limited capitalist democracy like England, France, or Germany.

    The left-wingers ( Stalinists and Trotskyists ) see fascists/nazis all over the earth. and they have been singing the same lyrics for several years,( post fascism ) but they have been approving the vanguard party to lead since it was created by the Bolsheviks, and they have supported third world” dictators for several decades.

    Fascism was a form adopted in Germany and Italy in order to manage capitalism, like state capitalism was a form adopted in Russia in order to manage capitalist development

    In our time racism, authoritarian governments, xenophobia, homofophia, and wars are considered as elements of fascism, and those characteristic are totally wrong, that is not fascism or nazism, those elements existed before the emerge of fascism in Italy and Germany. Austerity plans and monetarism is not fascism either

    The Socialist Party has explained very clearly what fascism really is

    Editorial – Trump – what now?

    The government of Donald Trump is not going to take the USA toward a fascist society, some of the measures that he is carrying were already implemented by prior administrations, even more, the massive deportation bill was also approved by the Democratic Party, the war in Ukraine was started and finance by the Democratic Party and the massacre in Gaza was also approved and financed by the Democratic Party, both parties have approved bipartisanship bills in detriment of the working class

    Fascism: Avoiding Anachronism

    #256533
    DJP
    Participant

    “Vulgar, aren’t you?”

    Actually I would say “talking shite” is a quite mild and common place way of describing someone that is talking out of their hat.

    I’d like to reassure you that it isn’t as lost a cause as you would think if you look at the actual data such as surveys like this one: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2024/04/25/235fb/1

    But this could be a topic for another thread.

    #256552
    robbo203
    Participant

    I don’t know if the source is reliable or not. Still, it looks like Mark Rutte the NATO secretary General is intent on ensuring that the US remains firmly wedded to this organisation. There would seem to be growing divisions within NATO over what to do about the Ukraine situation and it seems possible that a resolution to this stupid pointless war might be in sight …

    https://newsukraine.rbc.ua/news/trump-is-right-nato-chief-reacts-to-us-claims-1738504201.html

    #256566
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant
    #256567
    Wez
    Participant

    Since Adam’s perspective on fascism has been posted here I thought I would add my own – also published in the Standard. As you can read I have a rather different view, proving perhaps that socialist writing does not represent an ideological monolith? https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2020s/2024/no-1438-june-2024/fascism-as-ideology/

    #256569
    ALB
    Keymaster

    You are not saying that Trump is a fascist, are you?

    #256570
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    “Fascist” is a favourite epithet of leftists. The same as bringing the Nazis into any slanging match.

    #256571
    DJP
    Participant

    “As you can read I have a rather different view.”

    Well, I read that three times. But unfortunately, perhaps it’s me, I am still not much clearer in knowing what you mean by either ‘ideology’ or ‘fascism’.

    I don’t think it’s useful either politically or for purposes of conceptual clarity to label Trumpism as ‘fascist’. Sure there are some similarities you can pick out, but the dissimilarities are more important. A key factor in 1920’s Fascism was the presence of a mass of demobbed military that were willing to use force against enemies, especially against a strong and militant working-class movement.

    Something doesn’t have to be labelled ‘fascist’ for it to be a complete disaster.

    If you’re looking for labels ‘authoritarian national populist’ seems to work better as a description of today’s right-wing movements. And if you’re looking for historical analogues; perhaps this isn’t the rebirth of Mussolini but a replaying of the demise of the Roman Republic.

    https://newbooksnetwork.com/why-cicero-matters

    Perhaps this is where my thinking is different from others – I don’t know. I think democracy, including capitalist representative democracy, is always fragile.

    #256572
    Wez
    Participant

    In terms of the obvious failure of ‘liberal’ democracies in the US to deliver any of its promises the political context does seem to have parallels with the 1930s as far as those who voted for Trump as a ‘strongman’ outside of the political establishment who can deliver them from their miseries. Also probably those in the Republican hierarchy might be having second thoughts about their ability to control him – another parallel with Hitler. As for his personal ideology- he seems not to have a coherent set of political beliefs which, of course, has always been both the strength and weakness of ‘fascism’. We accept ‘state capitalist’ as a legitimate label for extreme leftist ideology so why are we so wary of describing extreme right-wing ideology as ‘fascist’? We also believe, despite being constantly told that capitalism has drastically changed over the years, that it is essentially the same beast as it ever was so what prevents a replay of the 1930s? An important difference, in real terms rather than ideological ones, is the role of the US military – does Trump have support from the generals? Perhaps the trauma of the defeat in Afghanistan might be a factor? Anyways if it looks like a duck, behaves like a duck and quacks like a duck then it’s probably a fookin’ duck.

    #256580
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant

    The Italian fascists took the military idea from the Roman Empire,( Combattimento ) and the USA is going thru a similar process like the fall of the Roman Empire, but the actual government of the UsA is not equal to the Italian Fascism or the German Nazism, and the characteristic mentioned by the left-wingers already existed before the emerge of fascism, and the Soviet Union is included too, indeed the Soviet empire was racist, xenophobic, colonial, and warmonger, but it was not fascist or nazis either, brutal violence is not exclusive of the fascists or the nazis, it is a proper distinction of the capitalist society and the capitalist state is violent. The USA, Japanese, British and French empires were/are racists, warmongers, xenophobic, and homophobic

    The Nazis salute did not come from the Roman Empire , it existed in other cultures before Fascism and Nazism, despite being often called a “Roman salute,” the Nazi salute did not originate from ancient Rome and there is no evidence that such a gesture was used by the Romans; historians believe the gesture likely originated from 19th-century art depicting Roman scenes, particularly Jacques-Louis David’s painting “The Oath of the Horatii” which featured a raised arm gesture, and was later adopted by Fascist leaders like Mussolini and then Hitler.

    The book cited by DJP is very good, and we are going thru that process when reading and trying to get self educated is been thrown away,, culture are been rejected and denigrated, I grew up under a different environmental where we were bibliophile, we loved cultures, the renaissance, the enlightenment, , before the emerge of online school we already had the discipline to educate ourselves thru correspondence schools because reading was our hobby, and the reading of Marx and Engels gave us better political and social education, it was a new world of new ideas. Those days are gone, I hope young peoples take the same road again, and bookstores and libraries become popular again

    Ideology are the prevailing ideas that prevail in a class society, and the prevailing idea in our society is the bourgeois ideology, and most ideology has their origin from an economic base, and fascism/nazism was a form adopted by capitalism in Germany and Italy, and it worked in Germany and it produces beneficial consequences for the German capitalist class, but those economical conditions do not exist in our time, instead of burning books, we need more books, although sometimes bookstores is not the only solution because Buenos Aires is surrounded by bookstores and workers fell in the trap of anarcho capitalism, and it is not a new movement, it started before the presidency of Muaricio Macri, even more, Domingo Peru flirted with Nazism

    Fascist and Nazis were completely defeated and overthrown by eternal forces, ( included those that continue repeating the same nazis scare ) and it emerged under a weak economic infrastructure, in our time with the establishing of strong capitalist limited democracy the capitalist do not need fascism, and rightwing movement can not be associated with fascism/nazism, and at the present time right wingers are very popular among the ranks of the working class, millions of workers love them, and they have established the cult of the leadership.

    The article written by Adam about fascism is not his exclusive idea either, even more, some Trostkyists writers have had the same ideas but they continue defending the concept of the dictatorship of the party to lead. There is a book review of one of them in the SPGB/WSM website, but that is the best definition of Fascism/nazism

    #256582
    ALB
    Keymaster

    I would have thought that the best description of Trump is that he is a business boss applying the same behaviour on the political field that they do on the economic. Instead of polite diplomatic niceties, ruthless competition exploiting the weakness of rivals and applying the principle that “might is right”.

    A previous US President, Theodore Roosevelt before WW1, proclaimed “speak softly and carry a bit stick”. Trump is proclaiming “carry a big stick and wave it about”.

    Actually this could be seen as a breath of fresh air clearing away the hypocrisy of the “wars for democracy” and concern for “human rights” that the mealy-mouthed officeholders in other states have tried to fool us with for so long.

    The rivalry between capitalist states for sources of raw materials, markets, trade routes, and investment outlets can be seen for what it is — the competitive struggle for profits that is built-in to capitalism.

    #256583
    DJP
    Participant

    “I would have thought that the best description of Trump is that he is a business boss applying the same behaviour on the political field that they do on the economic.”

    Trump is actually a failed businessman with multiple bankruptcies. He got famous for playing the role of a successful businessman on reality TV. This has given him delusions about his business acumen, which are now playing out in his dealings as President.

    “Actually this could be seen as a breath of fresh air”

    I’m not sure about that. Be careful not to get too accelerationist about it.

    #256585
    robbo203
    Participant

    Trump is actually a failed businessman with multiple bankruptcies.

    I know some of his businesses have gone bankrupt (and he also has substantial outstanding debts) but I don’t know if it would be accurate to call him a failed businessman. Failed businessmen tend not to be billionaires but according to Wikipedia:

    “For decades, Forbes has assessed his wealth, currently estimating it at $6.8 billion as of mid-January 2025. Meanwhile, Bloomberg estimates his wealth at $7.08 billion as of the same date, although Trump himself claims a much higher net worth.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_of_Donald_Trump#:~:text=For%20decades%2C%20Forbes%20has%20assessed,a%20much%20higher%20net%20worth.

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