robbo203
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“I suppose anything is possible—at least if your field of vision is that of a agency computer screen in the Virginia suburbs of Washington, D.C.—but the last group that I can imagine turning on Putin are the oligarchs whose fortunes, and his, are tied together through a series of interlocking directorates that make it impossible to delineate where Putin’s wealth ends and theirs begin.
Most of the oligarchs understand that if Putin falls, they will fall with him.”
“Brexit shows Britons love freedom in same way as Ukrainians, Johnson says”
But Ukraine wants to join the EU, doesn’t it?
“Democracy Ukrainian style:
Zelenskyy suspends parties with Russian links”
Perhaps that buffoon, B Johnson, should be informed of this
“Brexit shows Britons love freedom in same way as Ukrainians, Johnson says”
Really this is a war between two capitalist autocracies….
“A socialist revolution isn’t a possible result of resistance to the invasion of invasion of Ukraine. It’s understandable that people will want to forcibly defend themselves against attacks on their lives and homes, but one needs to remain as clear-headed as possible and a clear-headed analysis means making a clear separation between the people that live in Ukraine (and not all of them are subjects of the Ukrainian state) and the Ukrainian state. An inforced mass-suicide in defence of the state is not something that furthers the movement for socialism in any way. And calls for escalation or prolongation of the conflict are just calls for mass suicide on a wider scale.”
Very well said, DJP! I have just submitted a comment on the website of the MHI along much the same lines. I would encourage others to do the same. I find it very disappointing that this organization should have taken the position it has done in support of the Ukrainian capitalist state.
Andrew Kliman says of Ukrainian workers “I’m going to listen to what they say is in their interests.” Does that mean he will be equally undiscriminating in listening to what Russian workers have to say when a lot of them seem to think it is in their interests for Russia to invade Ukraine?
Just because a worker says something is in her interests does not make it so. It is called “false consciousness”
Regarding the view of the other comrade not on this forum:
“I have to say I personally don’t agree at all this has been somehow started by the West, whatever their faults”
Yes, that’s technically correct but only in a proximate sense. It is also true that the West has contributed significantly to the situation in which the Putin regime felt it necessary for its own reasons to invade Ukraine.
At the time of the break up of the Soviet Union, there was an understanding, if not a binding agreement, that NATO would not move into Eastern Europe. Nato disregarded this and moved eastwards. Similarly, there is clear evidence of Western influence and support for the 2014 Maidan coup which toppled the then pro-Russia Ukrainian government that had initially been favourable towards the West but found its path to closer integration obstructed by the harsh neoliberal policies Western powers wanted to impose on it. The new pro-Western government that was installed actively discriminated against the Russian-speaking minority precipitating the Donbas situation, a major factor leading up to the invasion.
It is very important that we should not be seen to let Western capitalist powers off the hook, in the same way as we should not be seen to be sympathetic in the slightest to the brutal capitalist regime of Vladimir Putin. Both sides in this unfolding tragedy must be vigorously attacked for their respective if different contributions to making it happen.
And also we should not be seen to siding with those Left-wing fantasists who characterise this as some sort of war of “national liberation” and urge that Ukrainian workers take up arms against the “Russian invaders” – Russian workers in uniform who have been similarly duped by the obnoxious Putin regime. Suicidal heroics in the name of a pointless bourgeois “national liberation” will get you nowhere except the cold comfort of an early grave.
Leftists who think like this and want to betray Ukrainian workers for the sake of a Ukrainian capitalist state should really be consistent and honest about what they are calling for and align themselves more explicitly with the NATO camp that would be supplying these workers with the arms they would need to do what these leftists are urging them to do
“Self determination” – the mantra they apply to states, but never to individuals.
Good Point AC. In the end, the position advocated in the article is a nationalist one and therefore, ipso facto, a capitalist one. The author might just as well side with NATO which he condemns other leftists for doing because realistically where else are you getting to get your weapons from to fight your war of “national self-determination”?
This is quite a useful sketch of the different conflicting perspectives on the Left on Ukraine and the “traps” that they entail. Yet disappointingly the writer falls into his own trap by way of a summary:
“We should support the Ukrainian right of self-determination and its struggle for national liberation from Russian occupation. We must advocate the right of Ukranians to secure arms from wherever they can to defend themselves—even as we must point out to Ukrainians the strings that will come attached to any weapons and support they seek from the United States and other imperial powers.”
AC but what if Ukraine ratified an agreement that Crimea was Russian perhaps with co-signatories in the shape of the western powers. A peaceful settlement would be in their interests anyway as well as Russia’s. I don’t think the fact that NATO could strike Moscow in two minutes as opposed to five if Ukraine was not in NATO would make much material difference
A thought occurred to me. If Ukraine formally recognised Donbas and Crimea as separate entities no longer part of Ukraine this would effectively remove the obstacle in the way of Ukraine joining NATO would it not? NATO’s own rules on membership don’t currently allow Ukraine to join precisely for this reason – that part of its territory is contested. Maybe Ukraine might decide to cut their losses and cut Donbas and Crimea adrift in return for which they would then be able to join NATO and presumably secure their future against any future invasion. Russia won’t like the idea of Ukraine joining NATO but the pros might outweigh the cons in this case
“Another call for the workers to kill themselves defending their own ruling class in a so-called patriotic war.”
Yes, MovimientoSocialista
It’s one thing to say you are opposed to Russian Imperialism, it’s quite another to actively align yourself with and support the other side – that is to say, another capitalist state as the people you mention do. Hence, their statement:
“We are in favour of the delivery of defensive weapons to the victims of aggression with no strings attached – in this case to the Ukrainian state fighting the Russian invasion of its territory”
It is interesting that the Left seems to split on this whole issue. Some support Russian imperialism on the pretext of “fighting fascism” (notwithstanding the quasi-fascist nature of the Putin regime), others support the authoritarian Ukrainian state. Very few seem to be saying a “plague on both their houses”
The WSM may not be unique in adopting this last position but I think it is the most consistent and principled organisation in its opposition to every capitalist war going right back to World War one
Another example of Leftists choosing sides in a capitalist war – this time in support of Russian capitalist imperialism. Why can’t these people, along with those like the ridiculous “Workers Liberty” party that seemingly align themselves with NATO instead, see that the only sensible and principled approach is simply to REFUSE to be drawn into supporting either side.
https://www.struggle-la-lucha.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/04SLL28Feb2022.pdf
Anyone who supports one or other side in this capitalist war automatically forfeits the right to be considered a socialist organisation for this reason alone (let alone the many other reasons one can adduce)
Adam and all
You referred earlier to a circular email you received from the following individual condemning our anti-nationalist approach to the Ukraine war
“Boris Ikhlov, secretary of executive committee of Russia’ Marxist political union “Worker”, 5.3.2022″
Well, purely by accident I came across a very old email dated July 2014 when I was looking for something totally different in my email filing system. Lo and behold in this email the name Boris Ikhlov cropped up.
I copy and paste the main contents as follows:“The informer Boris Ikhlov at work
http://eretik-samizdat.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-informer-boris-ikhlov-at-work.htmlAndrey Karaulov, reclamed by Ikhlov (see below), also was KGB informer: he betrayed Boris Kagarlitsky – B. K. had come to jail because of Karaulov. About that see here (in Russian):
From the samizdat blog, it appears that Ikhlov is associated with the fascist National Bolshevik party in Russia!
Leftist supporters of Ukrainian nationalism and self-determination in the shape of the “Workers’ Liberty” group
QUOTE:
“And who do British leftists, who refuse to back Ukraine, think they are to demand the Ukrainians negotiate with Putin? and even negotiate on the basis of Minsk 2? The Ukrainian government wants to negotiate, and that is its right. Our job is to rally working-class support to help Ukraine fight to defend itself. That is the division now on the UK left.”
