Bijou Drains
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Shekn “we cannot estimate resource depletion in socialism based on capitalist data. Where did you see me claim that we can? I am really not sure what you are arguing against here, as my position was never to concentrate on overpopulation.”
can I quote you?
Contribution <u>#189414</u>
“I do however insist that current understanding of ecological state of our planet in the scientific community clearly is that overpopulation is at the center of the climate crisis,”
Is that exact enough for you?
A slightly different point about human population size and growth can be made when we look at biomass. If we take the argument that in terms of food consumption, most animals very roughly require the same amount of food per cubic centimetre of biomass (although in real term larger animals are more efficient), comparison of human biomass with non human biomass is very interesting.
For Example human biomass is now estimated at about, 385 million tonnes, the estimated biomass of termites is 445 million tonnes and the biomass of earthworms is a staggering 6,800 million tonnes. Does this mean there is an overpopulation of termites and earthworms? How much green house gas does the average termite give off? well it is reckoned that up to 3% of global methane comes from termites, however they have a “technology” that could help us out when it comes to the amount of methane being produced by our activities –
https://phys.org/news/2018-11-termite-mound-filters-methaneand-greenhouse.html
An interesting comparison is that in pre- whaling days, it is estimated that the Blue Whale population had a bio mass of around 40 million tonnes, that equates to about a 1/10 of the current human population biomass, on a diet purely based on krill!!
The apologists for war, famine, racism, etc. have often used overpopulation as a reason for these human activities (and I am not for one moment suggesting this of you Schekn). But it is interesting that there is no record of great blue whale wars of conquest, or North Atlantic blue whales ganging up to stop those bloody Antarctic Blue Whales coming round here causing problems, etc.
Shekn – Whilst I accept wholeheartedly the viewpoint that the resources of the earth of finite and that at the present rate of consumption and the misuse of these resources cannot be sustained, I differ with regard to the view that this is caused, or can be solved in terms of human overpopulation.
As socialists we can see that huge amounts of food are inevitably wasted through the capitalistic mode of production and distribution. There are a myriad of examples of this, food being destroyed to boost market prices, arable land being taken out of production for the same reason, the blight of cash crops, the insane levels of waste of food for a variety of reasons (for example it has been estimated that in California 50% of food production is thrown away, etc. etc. In fact the whole market system where food production is limited by the by the fact that it produced to meet the needs of the market and not the needs of human beings, completely distorts the picture in terms of production of food.
Another small but relevant example, I was recently on holiday in Lanzarote, a very barren landscape, but dotted at regular intervals with Golf Courses, all beautifully kept and verdant. I did a bit of research and found that across the Canary Islands alone there are at least 25 golf course each with an average size of 150 hectares per course. although in capitalist terms it is not cost effective to turn this grass production over to the production of another type of grass (wheat), it is an example of what can be technically done. Working on the basis of Australian farms which farm in a similar climate and produce an average of 9.33 metric tonnes of wheat per hectare, this gives us a potential of 13,995 tonnes of wheat production. So if human ingenuity can turn the deserted landscape of Lanzarote into golf courses, purely because it meets market demands, what potentially could human ingenuity create, released from the demands of production for sale on the market and freed from the dictate that human labour can only be used to produce what is profitable to the few.
Again when we come to discuss greenhouse gases, the point the socialist makes is not that we need to move to some kind of puritanical society where we capture our own farts to save the planet, but that at least 50%, if not more of greenhouse gas production is unnecessary. The natural resources used to sustain banking, insurance, advertising, stock market, invoicing, etc. etc. are a massive. All of the travel involved, the lighting, the heating, the air conditioning, etc. etc. will be unnecessary in a Socialist Society. I look at my own work, mainly training and teaching, about 70% of what I do and the resources I use doing the job are unnecessary. Just taking the one point you make about aquifers, how much water is used globally in production processes that are heavily reliant on the use of water, not because it is necessary but because it is cheaper than sustainable methods
The point I am attempting to make is that examining what is possible and likely in a capitalist society and applying it to a socialist society is not only erroneous, it actually depletes our case of one of its strongest arguments, that we do not stand for equalisation of misery, but the best for everyone.
Perhaps the answer lies in the increasing trade and other links being developed between Iran and Pakistan. Historically there have been quite close ties, Iran was the first country to recognise Pakistani sovereignty. There is talk of a Iran – Pakistan – China pipeline. There is a free trade agreement between Pakistan and Iran, Iran has pronounced its support for Pakistan over Kashmir, etc.
It seems like the world is solidifying even further into two opposing trading blocks, backed by their military strength. India at the moment appears to be courting the block that includes the US, Saudi Arabia, etc. whereas Pakistan appears to be heading more in the direction of the Russia, China, Iran camp. It’s just like the Krays and the Richardsons really, just teh Krays and the Richardsons had more compassion, humanity and regard for human life.
I haven’t had a chance to see much on RT, but I would bet they are playing up the dispute for their masters int eh same way as the Western media are paying it down for theirs
The trouble is L Bird, that you state that:”The Truth” can only be established by a democratic vote of all of the world’s workers, but how can this be true, if all of the world’s workers haven’t voted to say that it is true?
Can I suggest that you go away and arrange a poll of all of the world’s workers to establish if what you are saying is an individual is true and then if you have established it as true, using your own criteria of a world wide plebiscite in which the majority have voted in favour of your definition of truth, we can talk about it.
Otherwise, by your own definition, all you are doing is coming on to this board and spreading untruths.
“…I can’t make any of youse give a political answer to these political questions…”
Do you think that’s true, if so who voted for it?
“‘That’s the problem, matey, there is no truth, only perception.’
If that were ‘true’ then there could be no lies either – and we all know that to be ‘untrue’, don’t we Bijou?”
I think you’ll find that that’s your perception of the truth.
This leads to the question can a lie exist without its opposite the truth, can black exist if there is no white?
Before you know it we’ll be discussing the interpenetration of opposites, and you know where that leads…………….. insanity (or perhaps sanity).
“but won’t tell us which elite would produce truth”
That’s the problem, matey, there is no truth, only perception.
Schekn Itrch- You state “When given freedom, society spontaneously self-organises into wild capitalist structure with its propensity for ever increasing inequality and capital accumulation.”
This is a sweeping statement, with huge implication, yet you provide nothing to back it up. When has society ever been given freedom? From a Socialist viewpoint freedom can only come when the ownership of the means of production have been socialised and have become common property. I can think of no instant in history where this has happened.
You also put forward the idea that there is something Natural about capitalism. Considering the fact that anatomically modern humans began to emerge around 100,000 years ago and that capitalism began at the earliest in the late 15th Century (a very early estimate)m can you explain why this “natural” proclivity of humans took so long to emerge. It sounds to me like you are talking about a rehash of the long debunked theory of “human nature” as a barrier to Socialism.
Alan
I have happily gone along to Sid James’s Park since 1970, and a week on Sunday I will attend again fully expecting that our new man Steve Bruce (aka Mrs Doubtfire) will bring silverware galore to the shores of the Tyne.
This Saturday I will watch the Gaelic Football full of confidence that the glorious Mayo team will crush Donegal in the All Ireland Championship and go on to win the Sam Maguire, overcoming the “curse of ’51.
Following every local and national election that the SPGB stand in I wait anxiously for the results, ever hoping that the long awaited electoral breakthrough will come.
I’m a supporter of Newcastle United, Mayo GAA and the SPGB. I have to be optimistic, the alternative is bloody suicide! 🙁
I think there is part of the conspiracy theorists that seeks adulation and respect from being an initiate of secret or forbidden knowledge, kind of a “everyone else can be dismissed as they don’t have the secret insight I do”. A bit like a poundstrechers’ version of a Freemason.
Jesus Alan, you do your best to find the negative in any situation. Someone posts something bright and cheery and you shoot it down with your arrows of despair and hopelessness, sitting there on your bucket, with your black dungarees on complaining “I nivver get ony fun roond here!”
Going back to the original topic, judging by the activity on here and the interesting debates about a range of topics, clearly not. I think the forum is beginning to get back to being a bit more like it was before it was hacked. It’s certainly more active and more interesting than many of the forums of the “left”
