alanjjohnstone
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As you did recommend that a member of our organisation should join the JCP, True Scotsman, I did look into the JCP and saw that it appears very inconsistent with your own opinions as already expressed on this forum, in fact, one could honestly say, it is in opposition to your own position.
Lenin it is said by the JCP reached a wrong conclusion on Marx’s theory on the matter during the period of this study, and this is apparent in the arguments presented in State and Revolution” and he “misunderstood Marx’s theory on revolution”
The JCP itself does misrepresent the political situation of post-February 1917 when the JCP, “the Russian state against which Lenin struggled was an authoritarian regime and there was no feasible way of enacting political change other than through an armed revolution.”
You praised Stalin, True Scotsman, yet the JCP says “Lenin became determined to wage a decisive struggle against Stalin after he clearly recognized Stalin’s great-power-chauvinistic character.”
This whole section on Marx and Engels is of interest but not particularly germane to the discussion here on this thread
However, these JCP statements certainly are
The JCP condemns the suppression of the Hong Kong protests
The JCP condemns China’s National Security Law. It is an outrageous act which further strengthens the forces of suppression of human rights in Hong Kong and turns China’s international commitment of “One Country, Two Systems” a hollow sham.
The JCP condemns the Myanmar coup.
The Japanese Communist Party strongly condemns the brutal act of trampling down on peaceful protests with the use of force and strongly demands that the Myanmar military stop the oppression immediately, release all detained people at once, and allow the return of the National League for Democracy-led government
The JCP condemns the Maduro government’s crackdown on the protests.
Do you still wish to counsel that WSM member in Japan to join the JCP even though it clearly does not support your politics?
However, it does explain my earlier question of why you haven’t joined the JCP.
270,000 in 18,000 branches Japanese ‘socialists’ disagree with you.
Previously you chided us on our lack of interaction with the Chinese CCP
“Have you ever met one? Have you debated theory with them? Have you worked out areas of commonality? My bet is you haven’t.”And now my bet is that you have never engaged with any member of the JCP.
“HGV drivers, on the other hand, who are not on the lowest pay, will be better off. Good luck to them.”
“In due course, the balance of power will return to management, perhaps by the mass re-training of HGV.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58521779
Up to 50,000 more HGV driving tests will be made available each year by shortening the application process and the tests themselves,
Japan and Vietnam have agreed to step up cooperation.
Japan’s Defence Minister Nobuo Kishi said the deal, signed on Saturday, elevates the two countries’ defence partnership “to a new level” and that Japan and Vietnam plan to deepen defence ties through multinational joint exercises and other means.https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/12/japan-vietnam-sign-defence-transfer-deal-amid-china-worries
HRW becomes valid when its reports such as those against Israel are acceptable to you.
Amnesty International suffers from the same criticisms that its findings are to be recommended and accepted only when it is in accord with your own political position.
But rather than simply a blanket rejection of the legitimacy of all these types of organisations, think-tanks and NGOs, you do as we do, examine their evidence and then reach a conclusion.
We do not make a priori condemnations and rejections, do we?
“Was Finland as poor as Haiti at the turn of the century?”
In the 19th Century, Scandinavia was suffering famine, resulting in mass emigrations. A study of North American socialist movements would show the existence of numerous Finnish-language socialist organisations.
“2008 and the COVID crisis barely effected China. Explain that.”
Covid did have a serious impact on the Chinese economy.
COVID_China2.pdf (wisc.edu)
As regards the 2008 Recession, one country’s misfortune is another opportunity.
USA replaced the British Empire and Germany post-WWI and WW2. The Soviet economy proved incapable of competing.
But the 2008 recession did result in a 45% drop in its exports one of the largest trade collapses in world history since the Great Depression. It was not immune and had to redirect production to its vast still untapped domestic market.
It is conceded by all economists that the Chinese economy rebounded quicker and stronger than the US and a larger proportion of growth has been centred in China. Some say because its SOE, still followed Keynesian economics and that re-directing business is always easier when governments have more control.
Why associate me with Gordon Chang who you say predicted various economic collapses after I had already said to you that recessions are unpredictable, meaning their cause, timing and location cannot be determined in advance. I simply stated accepted conventional Marxist economic theory to you. Or do you reject Marxian analysis?
“You are in Britain. I am not British. I haven’t a clue of the political landscape of the left in your country. Doubtless there are many left-wing groups you could seek to align yourself with were you prone to do so.”
You appear to believe that our position is one of British parochialism but we are sub-titled, The World Socialist Movement. I myself have not resided in the UK for several years but lived formerly in South India and now SE Asia.
As I said we consider ourselves a world socialist party, so where else do you believe there are socialist organisations that you wish us to join. Again I request your help in directing us to those parties you recommend. One now is the 270,000 strong Japanese Communist Party. Very much larger than ourselves but still relatively weak, polling less than 10% of the electorate.
Why have you yourself not joined it? Or have you? Perhaps you believe I am invading your rights to privacy by asking about your own political affiliations when you seem so ready to comment on our own.When I suggested you advocate we adopt the Chinese model you actually agree it is possible to emulate it, “Only India or perhaps the US could hope to emulate the Chinese way of doing things.”
The Indian BJP Hindutva nationalists are apparently the world largest political party. As I implied before, might is not necessarily right. You wouldn’t consider Modi progressive, would you?
And to clarify, there is a great difference between those who self-identify defining themselves as socialists and whether they actually hold socialist views or not. That was the explanation that some disputed that there were 90 million socialists in China. They were not arguing that there were not 90 million CCP members.
https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf
The full report does indeed demonstrate public approval of government at local as well as central levels.
The social services have been improved substantially to those who previously were deprived of access.
“by 2016 the Chinese government was more popular than at any point during the previous two decades. On average, Chinese citizens reported that the government’s provision of healthcare, welfare, and other essential public services was far better and more equitable than when the survey began in 2003. Also, in terms of corruption, the drop in satisfaction between 2009 and 2011 was completely erased, and the public appeared generally supportive of Xi Jinping’s widely-publicized anti-corruption campaign. Even on the issue of the environment, where many citizens expressed dissatisfaction, the majority of respondents expected conditions to improve over the next several years.”
The word of caution expressed is that this approval is entirely dependant upon economic success.
“Citizens who have grown accustomed to increases in living standards and service provision will expect such improvements to continue, and citizens who praise government officials for effective policies may blame them when policy failures affect
them or their family members directly.”This is crucial for anyone with an understanding of Marxist economics who can explain that economic crises are unavoidable features, regardless of whether free enterprise, mixed economy or centralized command economy.
Recessions are unpredictable but the root cause is the disproportionate over-expansion of certain industries, typically those that have grown rapidly during the boom phase of the trade cycle.
True Scotsman may claim China is immune, arguing it is a much more planned economy, but a Marxist would dispute it. The global market in which China is a key-player is subject to the anarchy of production.
There is no question that China is experiencing a prolonged boom, as did the USA post-WW2, but there are constant signs and signals within the economy of stress. The current one is about the debt burden of property giant, Evergrande. We cannot overlook the 2008 Recession was sparked by unsustainable debt and defaults in the property and banking sector of the USA and then its contagion into the wider economy and other countries.
We shall wait and see what happens when the balloon inevitably bursts.
But as an aside on surveys, can I mention the fact that Finland is constantly top of the happiness league while China is currently at No. 52
It is worth investigating further the relationship of the Chinese people with its government.
I should have also said Debs for most of his membership of the SPA never held any administrative position or official function in the Party. His role was mostly advisory.
But I am still curious that you are unable to direct me to any political party that you could actually recommend that you sympathise and support which makes me think they are as insignificant as we may be.
You have access to the internet and somehow in your cyber travels using your search engine you came across this website and you took the time to register with its forum to post your viewpoint.
What key-words did you enter in your search to bring you here? What were you looking for on the internet? What intrigued you enough that you chose to engage with us?
Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi has told a top Vietnamese official the two countries should refrain from unilateral actions regarding the South China Sea that could complicate the situation and magnify disputes.
So what you are saying to us is that you have no knowledge of any political party whatsoever that reflects your own personal political position, other than that the Chinese Communist Party meets with your approval.
You are telling us is that our new party policy should now be to advocate for political change by promoting the interests of China as an example of progress and not only endorse it but also emulate it.
We should also reject the hundreds and hundreds of analyses of Stalin in our archives, not written in hindsight but contemporary criticism.
And that this will broaden our appeal to ordinary fellow workers and lift us out of obscurity as a sectarian cult.
Am I getting you right?
If not you can correct me.
“As Eugene Debs said, if you let someone lead you into the promised land, you will permit another to so easily lead you out again” You do know he ran for President, right? You are funny.
What is your point?
He ran for president for the Socialist Party of America several times, once as a political prisoner.
He shares with our own party the principle that the political apparatus of the State must be captured, preferably if possible through a peaceful constitutional process.
He was making clear that he was doing so as the instrument of the will of the working class, not as a political leader.
The Internationale says it equally well
“No saviour from on high delivers
No faith have we in prince or peer
Our own right hand the chains must shiver
Chains of hatred, greed and fear”The Harvard findings where I assume you received your statistic on approval of China’s central government also found that approval of local government was only 11%.
A discrepancy I would appreciate your opinion upon.
What does it signify?
According to Harvard’s article, those authorities who actually responsible for delivering dependable and effective social services aren’t trusted to do so.
Perhaps you can explain why.
Our own Party is well aware that electoral support for all the pro-capitalist political parties collectively expressed by their votes is in the region of 99% but from your previous posts, you would disagree since all the various socialist, social democratic and communist parties cannot be defined as pro-capitalist despite their policies and practice.
Have you heard of the infantile disorder of left-wing communism?
And have you read Herman Gorter’s reply?
https://www.marxists.org/archive/gorter/1920/open-letter.htm
But please indulge my curiosity, True Scotsman, and answer which parties and organisations that you approve of that I should view as my comrades and enlist in? Simple enough request, isn’t it, since you urge us to do so.
And as for Engels being a factory manager, what a spectacular “gotcha” you have caught me out with. I suppose next you will say that because Marx married a member of the aristocracy and had a maid who he had an illegitimate child by, all his research I should therefore dismiss as invalid.
But what the materialist conception of history teaches us is that we should hold no store by the “great men” make history argument.
In fact, our obituary of Lenin makes that exact point
“So far was he from “changing the course of history”…it was the course of history which changed him”
MS, for clarity, TS is quoting me where I said for many years Marx and Engels were practically on their own. Their socialist circle probably a lot less than even our current membership
Indeed they created no political party but were obliged to join and then proceed to try and influence them.
“As you now acknowledge”
As opposed to when I didn’t acknowledge the fact? Which was…when exactly?
“China is little different from any other capitalist country in the world. ”
Demonstrably false.You stated in message #221791
True Scotsman – “China’s is a mixed economy like every other nation on earth. They have capitalist enterprises and nationalised enterprises.” – Your words, not mine.
As for your claim that the profits go to the uplift of the people, every capitalist in the last 300 years says the exact same, with their trickle-down theory and that the taxes they pay to the government pays for the welfare and social services, that their investment upkeeps public utilities, that it is out of the generosity of the good hearts that even hire people to work for them and pay such good wages.
But you believe the Chinese oligarchs and the state bureaucrats actually are all altruists because of some sort of spiritual and moral quality, not possessed by Western industrialists, if I recall another of your inferences from some post or other.
And if you read a little bit deeper, we say we will not be led by anyone, bourgeois or proletarian, charlatan or sincere.
As Eugene Debs said, if you let someone lead you into the promised land, you will permit another to so easily lead you out again
I’m sorry but I just don’t follow your logic when you cite a fall in the stock-market value of shares held by capitalists demonstrates a form of socialism.
Governments make decisions every day that either drops or raise the prices of shares on the stock-exchange.
You even ignore the statement
“…some of the biggest names in asset management say it’s still a good time to invest. They say recent regulatory moves were necessary and overdue, and China’s growth story remained attractive… Many of the biggest names on Wall Street, including BlackRock , the world’s largest asset manager, Fidelity and Goldman Sachs , are still advising clients to keep buying…”And tell us how their returns and dividends arise if it is not the extraction of surplus-value from the worker, expropriated by the employing-class whether they be private individuals, joint-stock companies (ie corporations) or state-owned entities. Basic ABC of Marx’s ‘Labor Theory of Value’
But I am willing to heed your advice.
“…you don’t have the wherewithal to join forces with seriously commited comrades and seize power…”
Please inform me of the parties and organizations of these comrades and where they can be contacted.
You can provide me with a list, can’t you? Perhaps, you can start with your own memberships.
