Hong Kong
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“We have a member of a companion party in Japan probably he has not found that organization with a large membership and a big incidence within the working class”
Japan has a fairly large Communist Party numbering some 18,000 branches. I suggest he joins a branch. They’re actual socialists, by the way, not play actors.
The so called Communist Party of Japan is just another bourgeois reformist organization which advocate for Japanese nationalism and Japanese sovereignty, and to run capitalism in the name of the working class, they can have thousands of branches and the aim are the same. There is not any genuine socialist/communist party in Japan. Peoples who join the WSM have rejected all the leftwing and reformist organizations
As you did recommend that a member of our organisation should join the JCP, True Scotsman, I did look into the JCP and saw that it appears very inconsistent with your own opinions as already expressed on this forum, in fact, one could honestly say, it is in opposition to your own position.
Lenin it is said by the JCP reached a wrong conclusion on Marx’s theory on the matter during the period of this study, and this is apparent in the arguments presented in State and Revolution” and he “misunderstood Marx’s theory on revolution”
The JCP itself does misrepresent the political situation of post-February 1917 when the JCP, “the Russian state against which Lenin struggled was an authoritarian regime and there was no feasible way of enacting political change other than through an armed revolution.”
You praised Stalin, True Scotsman, yet the JCP says “Lenin became determined to wage a decisive struggle against Stalin after he clearly recognized Stalin’s great-power-chauvinistic character.”
This whole section on Marx and Engels is of interest but not particularly germane to the discussion here on this thread
However, these JCP statements certainly are
The JCP condemns the suppression of the Hong Kong protests
The JCP condemns China’s National Security Law. It is an outrageous act which further strengthens the forces of suppression of human rights in Hong Kong and turns China’s international commitment of “One Country, Two Systems” a hollow sham.
The JCP condemns the Myanmar coup.
The Japanese Communist Party strongly condemns the brutal act of trampling down on peaceful protests with the use of force and strongly demands that the Myanmar military stop the oppression immediately, release all detained people at once, and allow the return of the National League for Democracy-led government
The JCP condemns the Maduro government’s crackdown on the protests.
Do you still wish to counsel that WSM member in Japan to join the JCP even though it clearly does not support your politics?
However, it does explain my earlier question of why you haven’t joined the JCP.
270,000 in 18,000 branches Japanese ‘socialists’ disagree with you.
Previously you chided us on our lack of interaction with the Chinese CCP
“Have you ever met one? Have you debated theory with them? Have you worked out areas of commonality? My bet is you haven’t.”And now my bet is that you have never engaged with any member of the JCP.
He does not know in what foot he is walking and wants to give lectures to the members of the WSM/SPGB, we have more than 100 years of experiences, we are an university on socialism/communism, we have ideological resources that others organization do not have.
I do appreciate everything that I learned from the WSM, it is one of the best ideological experiences/knowledge that I ever had
Why are we going to leave the WSM/SPGB to join a reformist/ bourgeois/ nationalist organization ? I am not going to leave the SPGB to join any Leninist, Stalinist, Trotskyist or Social Democratic organization, it is like leaving lights to go back to darkness. I would prefer to be an independent thinker or an independent socialist
Without knowing the principles of the WSM/SPGB and without having read anything he started to dismiss the WSM. Many of us have spent years reading and studying the WSM library and the index in order to be able to understand certain ideas, and some have been forced to go thru a political exorcism to break away with old and false conceptions
TRUESCOTSMAN
Oh dear. 91m communists/socialists? Communist and Socialist mean the same thing. Ffs! Both are interchangeable*.
Membership of the CPC is a meal ticket for a good job, housing etc. Keep up.
Millions vote Labour, millions are in trade unions, doesn’t mean they’re Communist/Socialist…far from it! Most Labour voters and members of trade unions are racist, bigoted, homophobic, sexist, anti working class…hate the unemployed…many now vote Tory! Keep up!Not to mention the fact that China is a one party capitalist state!
So you’ve just our resident witless interlocutor.
Tell me you don’t understand communism/socialism without telling me.
Don’t thank me*We refer to ourselves as Socialists, because China, Russia et al, have dragged “communism” through the mud backwards.
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“And this is why nobody likes you. You’re a hateful and irrelevant little clique of naval gazers.”
You of course have a citation (obviously not the CPC lol) for this? Or is it a another made up lie…seems to be a recurring theme with you.
How many people are you talking about? Actual names, numbers to back up your very dubious claim.
It seems that you have more infantile bile against us, than for capitalism itself. Just a thought. If China is so good why not live there? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Clearly, you’d be well at home with 91m communists, to boot!
Oh wait…
Unfortunately, as Marxists we do not say what you want to hear. That’s how Socialists/SPGB works. Deal with it.Care to eat your words now TrueScotsman or would you prefer to do so after lunch?
Have you ever played football and headed the ball too much?
PS. I have to say, people who are starving don’t make good revolutionaries…Silver lining maybe?
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And this is why nobody likes you. You’re a hateful and irrelevant little clique of naval gazers.”
You of course have a citation for this? Or is it a another made up lie…seems to be a recurring theme with you.
How many people are you talking about? Actual names, numbers to back up your very dubious claim.
It seems that you have more infantile bile against us, than for capitalism itself. Just a thought. If China is so good why not live there? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
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I have seen some Anarchists website publishing some of our publications, so, where is the so called hate ? They know that we support most of Marx and Engels conceptions, and many anarchists do not support Marx and Engels.
He sounds like George Bush who said that the whole world hate the USA and the freedom of the Americans, but nobody hates the Americans,(USA ) peoples hate the politic and imperialist aim of the USA ruling class.
We have had discussion with Anarcho capitalists, Leninists, Stalinists and Nazis, and each side has had the opportunity to present their own point of view
He is allowed to spit poison against the SPGB and he has not been thrown out yet, if he goes to some forums that I know he would be kicked out immediately
“Most hardcore Maoists do not support the government of China since the coup to the gang of four what they call the gang of five because it includes Mao Tse Tung. One of the largest Maoist group is RCPUSA”
Lucky for me I’m not a hardcore Maoist then, I guess. I’m just a worker who reads.
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Probably, you are not a hardcore Maoist, but you are supporting the leadership that overthrew what was called the Gang of Four( the Maoists call it the gangs of five including Mao ) which are a product of Maoism, and since the very beginning Mao like Castro said that China was not socialist.
Have you read the works of Enver Hoxha ? ( I have read the six volumes and the two volumes on China ) , He describes them pretty well, and he describe China as a state capitalist society. Lenin himself said that Russia was a state capitalist economy
In regard to the leadership there are many millionaires and billionaires at the top of the so called Communist Party, the question is where does capital comes from ? It comes from the exploitation of the working class, it is also known as unpaid labour, or robbery, therefore, they are just a bunch of thief.
A social class is defined according to their relationship with the means of production, an individual or several individual who own large means of production, and a large accumulation of capital is a capitalist, or a member of the capitalist class, a wage earner, or a wage slave is a member of the working class, therefore, the wage slaves of China are governed by capitalists, and the party is a capitalist organization
“There is no question that China is experiencing a prolonged boom, as did the USA post-WW2, but there are constant signs and signals within the economy of stress.”
You sound like Gordon G. Chang who predicted China would collapse in 2006 then 2011 then 2012 then 2016 then 2017. He’s no doubt saying the same thing about Evergreen. And yet China still hasn’t collapsed. He’s made a good living publishing his prognostications to credulous China-bashers. Perhaps you could do the same?
“We shall wait and see what happens when the balloon inevitably bursts.”
The CCP is highly competent. I’ve no doubt they’ll continue to manage their economy with finesse.
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You should read the Theory of Crisis written by Karl Marx. The capitalist society always has periodic crisis, and they are crisis of overproduction, and the crisis are longer than the period of ‘prosperity’
There is not any capitalist country which can claim that they are not going to have a crisis, nobody can hold the bull by the horns. Capitalists themselves can not stop the crisis of their own economic system.
Socialism in one country is a fallacy created by the Bolsheviks, and Russia was the last country in the whole world able to have independent/internal capitalist development.
You use the word Economy, which shows that you do not know that socialism is not going to be an economic system, it is going to be a worldly social production, of free labors, and wage slavery is a clear indication of capitalist production, socialism is going to be a wageless society without a proletarian class
You are in Britain. I am not British. I haven’t a clue of the political landscape of the left in your country. Doubtless there are many left-wing groups you could seek to align yourself with were you prone to do so.
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Workers do not have any country, or fatherland, and socialist/communist do not have any country either. That is pure bourgeois nationalism.
We have members who are from Spain, Italy, Germany, India, and the Caribbeans, USA, and Canada.
There are many left wings groups around the world who are just nationalist political party of the place where they were formed, switching from one to another, is like leaving one social club into another social club and many split takes place based on leadership
https://en.internationalism.org/content/17053/neither-fatherland-or-death-nor-fatherland-and-life-proletarians-have-no-fatherland This is what a leftist group said in regard to the concept of fatherland and workers supporting their own ruling class, like Chinese workers supporting their own ruling class, and the political party of the ruling class
I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth, and I am a citizen of the world.
Eugene V. Debs
*We refer to ourselves as Socialists, because China, Russia et al, have dragged “communism” through the mud backwards.
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In the same way that Marx and Engels used the word communism in theirs time because socialism was a reformist movement, but they used both expression meaning the same. Lenin was the one who separated both to justify their dictatorship of the party on top of the working class
The Communist Manifesto should not have been called the Communist Manifesto, it was also called the German Manifesto and it contains certain reformists clauses
In our time both expression have been totally distorted, anyone making noises about capitalist reforms is called a socialist or a communist, an armed groups who goes to the mountains and jungles to kill it is called a socialist or a communist, a group which attack a bank teller to take money for a so called revolution is called a communist or a socialist, a corporation which distributes profit sharing to the worker is called corporate socialism, a state which provides free education, medical service and public transportation is called a socialist or communist state, the list is longer than a catholic rosary.
In essence none are socialists, that is one of the reasons why we have an austerity clause, all genuine socialist conceptions lead toward the WSM/SPGB, there is not any other choice. I already did my windows shopping
The fact is… unfortunately for TrueScotsman
When a worker has a basic understanding of what we say, any attack has the opposite effect. I know this from my own experience.
Must try harder TS.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2009/08/japa-a28.html
The so called Communist Party of Japan is an ally of the Japanese ruling class, and its purpose is to run a nationalist program, and to expand the Japanese bourgeois democracy under the disguise of anti imperialism, the same slogan used by the old militarist which had inter class contradiction with the USA ruling class.
“Most of the high level officials are capitalists”
Citation needed.
This is an analysis made by a left wing organization in regard to one of the Congress of the Communist Party of China, they call it a Congress of Capitalists
Comrades, ceasefire.
True Scotsman has shown that it is he who is a one-man-band unable to even find a political party he can call home.
His accusations that we being cultists and isolated are the projection of his own personal politics.
He couldn’t indicate any group in the world as reflecting his ideas other than the JCP (“They’re actual socialists, by the way, not play actors”-TS) and he didn’t even know their policies and positions were in total opposition to his own.
Keep your powder dry for the next battle of ideas, comrades.
“Do you still wish to counsel that WSM member in Japan to join the JCP even though it clearly does not support your politics?”
I stand corrected. The views of the JCP are as bad as your own. Your comrade should not join the party.
“However, it does explain my earlier question of why you haven’t joined the JCP.”
I haven’t joined any political organisations in Japan because I don’t speak Japanese.
“And now my bet is that you have never engaged with any member of the JCP.”
You are correct. If your summary of their views is correct then I would have no home with them either.
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