The survival of the planet and the human race depends upon the victory of the working class over the the <1%

[Anonymous]

 

Discuss 

[ALB]

Understood literally, that's an exaggeration. The planet will survive a long time, a very long time  (until the Sun explodes)  whether or not human race does. I would think that humans too will survive a long tome too even a nuclear war, but the question is in what conditions. I don't think even capitalist governments would allow a runaway greenhouse effect turning Earth into a second Venus to develop, so that's not a realistic bogey.So, I'd rephrase the essay title to something like "The survival on the human race on the planet in decent conditions depends, etc."

[alanjjohnstone]

 

Quote:

I don't think even capitalist governments would allow a runaway greenhouse effect turning Earth into a second Venus to develop

Not intentionally, of course…what use is it for capitalistsif there is no people whatsoever to produce and buy products…but who says they cannot do so accidentally, without meaning to…We are already at the brink of IRREVERSIBLE climate change….what happens when we cross the line is not as yet fully knowable or predictable according to what i have read…it is speculative scenarios …  The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) chair R. K. Pachauri, said “The solutions are many and allow for continued economic and human development. All we need is the will to change, which we trust will be motivated by knowledge and an understanding of the science of climate change…Addressing climate change will not be possible if individual agents advance their own interests independently; it can only be achieved through cooperative responses, including international cooperation.”You have more faith and trust in this still to be proved unity of capitalists than i have….i tend to side with Istvan Meszaros…"Barbarism IF we are lucky"…and as i keep saying, i'm the glass half empty type of personality, so i'm not optimistic in expecting any good luck…bye-bye beautiful world…hello barren lifeless rock…One of my blog posts was called .."Share the World, Spare the Planet"…and my personal blog now has a sub-title "A World to Win, A Planet to Save" …i think i have become an apolcalyptic catastrophist socialist…"Socialism …Either Now or Never"….But who really knows, eh?…But some say this pessimism is self-defeating negativism…Some argue it adds a sense of urgency to our case…you takes your picks, comrades …But…"Its the end of the world as we know it…and i feel fine", as the REM song goes..

[Anonymous]

So you don't accept the science supporting global warming?Surely noone interprets 'destroyed' to mean the sun explodingIf capitalism continues the planet will be destroyed long before the Sun explodes. 'Destroyed' = not fit for life. Give me some credit 

[ALB]

Of course I accept that there's global warming and that it has been mainly caused by the past and present human activity of burning fossil fuels. But it is not proceeding at a rate that will lead to the Earth becoming uninhabitable for humans by the end of this century, as some non-scientists have been suggesting.Besides, the exact relationship between the release of CO2 into the atmsosphere and the rise in average global temperature is not known exactly, so scenarios as to what might happen are based on assumptions that might not turn out to be the case. Also, in the past the Earth has been considerably warmer than it is now and was still able to sustain life, so we can assume that humans, given our present technology and knowledge, should be able to adapt to a warmer world.I'm not saying that there is not a problem but I don't see anything to be gained by exaggerating and trying to scare people into becoming socialists, especially as if you exaggerate you risk ending up with egg on your face.

[Anonymous]

And if capitalism continues for the next 1000 years do you think the capitalists will eventually start to put the environment and human need before the relentless pursuit of profit ?People should be afraid of  capitalism, it is up to socialists to counter the idealist view created by the capitalist media and bring the horrors of capitalism to the attention of the working class instead of ignoring them and offering socialism up as as some sort of utopia.Fear is part of the solution

[SocialistPunk]

I'm mainly with ALB on this one.I've often spoken with family and friends about the claim that we are destroying the planet, when it is actually our (and other species) environment we are altering. What that means as far as I can tell is we could end up with a range of scenarios that could well change different parts of this planet to either deserts, flood lands and even frozen wastes.Such scenarios will cause unimaginable social pressures. We all know that such social pressures as mass migration, competition for resources etc, inevitably lead to war.To say we are destroying the planet exaggerates climate change to the point that it loses meaning for most people. If on the other hand it may mean that most of Britain, for example, becomes a frozen waste for nine out of twelve months or we end up with a monsoon like flood season, or experience crop destroying heat waves and droughts every year, then people are more likely to get a handle on what it could mean for them.We then have a choice as to whether to try and prevent climate change, if it's possible. Or be prepared to adapt to potentially severe environmental changes. Either way, we know capitalism will make the situation much harder than it need be.As ALB points out, no one really knows what will happen. There are just a range of possibilities. But we definitely won't destroy the planet.

[Anonymous]

SocialistPunk wrote:

I'm mainly with ALB on this one.

 I wasn't aware there was a competition and 'sides'.My OP was playing the devil's advocate, I think there is a lot of  'save the planet',  'eco worrior'   'vegetarian' and 'animal loving'  crap on this forum.  This forum is part of a class based party. Members of the working class are starving, killing each other and/or living rough. Socialism is about the economic interests of the working classIt is about members of the working class being free from exploitation and taking more and not less of the planet. Maybe I want socialism so I can burn more oil, eat more meat and kick animals  None of these are against working class interests and should not dominate our propaganda.Lol. Another suspension for speaking my mind

[steve colborn]

At the moment the Sun (Sol) is on the main sequence of a stars life. It will not, as has been suggested earlier "explode". It will go on to become a Red Giant, as the star starts to increase in size, as the Gravitational/Fusion battle reaches a conclusion. Hydrogen fusion will give way to Helium fusion. When the Sun expands, it will eventually do so, so that its circumference encompasses the orbit of the planet Earth and others as well.As Adam states, nothing that man can do will destroy the planet. What man can do, is to make the Earth uninhabitable to many lifeforms, including Mankind.As Vin states, human beings should be afraid, very afraid, of Capitalism. It is this fear that Vin states, we should use to put as part of the case for replacing Capitalism with a "Sane" alternative.One more thing. If Global climactic conditions continue their upward temperature rise, we could be in serious trouble. I refer, of course, to the deposits of Methane Hydrates (a concentrated form of Methane), massive deposits of which are contained in the Ocean Depths, where the extreme cold/pressure keeps them stable. It has been conclusively proved that the oceans are heating up. If this heat gradient reaches the Ocean Depths and impacts adversely upon the Methane Hydrate deposits, we won't be looking at Global Temperature rises in single digits but roses in double digits. Not merely this but the rise wont be a gradual projected rise but a temperature rise that is quick and dramatic.In this instance, the chances of scientific amelioration of the consequences will be severely curtailed in their scope and effect, if not made irrelevant and pointless!!!

[SocialistPunk]

Vin wrote:

My OP was playing the devil's advocate, I think there is a lot of  'save the planet',  'eco worrior'   'vegetarian' and 'animal loving'  crap on this forum.  This forum is part of a class based party. Members of the working class are starving, killing each other and/or living rough. Socialism is about the economic interests of the working classIt is about members of the working class being free from exploitation and taking more and not less of the planet. Maybe I want socialism so I can burn more oil, eat more meat and kick animals  None of these are against working class interests and should not dominate our propaganda.

Hi Vin,Couldn't disagree more with ya. I don't think there is enough "eco warrior vegetarian, animal loving crap on this forum". Such issues are very relevant to a lot of people.I don't think it's a case of spreading socialism too thinly, when it comes to what can get the message across to as many people as possible. Some people are concerned with what they can get out of it, ie food, water clothing, shelter and adequate health care. Others are concerned about environmental issues and some are switched on by more academic study. There is room for all, though I would add that in the run up to an election, academic topics are the least effective, in my humble view.As for the idea of it only being about the economic interests of the working class and increased production and consumption. That may have applied back in Marx's days. Now it's about effective use of resources to make sure we have enough of what's needed for many generations to come. We can still live well while protecting our environment and using resources efficiently. What can't be done is increased consumption on a western capitalist model for everybody in the world. So more oil can't be burnt and more animals can't be consumed, if we are serious about saving our skins.Socialism is ultimately about creating a world of common ownership and democratic control for the benefit of all human kind, it isn't about saying, "Right we've got rid of those decadent, capitalist parasites, free gas guzzling car for everyone, yippee!"

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