The PRINCIPLE of HEALTHY & MEANINGFUL LIVING

June 2024 Forums General discussion The PRINCIPLE of HEALTHY & MEANINGFUL LIVING

Viewing 15 posts - 181 through 195 (of 217 total)
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  • #126069
    Prakash RP
    Participant

     ' People take drugs of various kinds to escape from meaningless lives and the stresses associated with it etc. The fact that the escape is often a short term fix and reality returns sometimes with a physical dependency and or psychological dependency is another matter. Often it is referred to by those are more sympathetic and understanding and less pompous as ‘self medication’. Gambling can fall into a similar kind of category and is much more complicated varying adrenaline rushes to ‘meaningfully’ experiencing a  panoply of emotional rushes for people who normally have them generally repressed. According to the trick cyclists. A lot of these primitive human cultures use psychedelic drugs and get pissed occasionally on fermented juice. Other systems engage in self induced higher states of mind etc like the Buddhists. Saying what a meaningful life isn’t is one thing but where is the positive programme? ' [ comment by Dave B on 19/04/2017 ] ' People take drugs of various kinds to escape from meaningless lives and the stresses associated with it etc. ' Right! Nevertheless, the point missed is this silly escapism does NOT add a whit of meaning to the ' meaningless lives ' of those ignoramuses addicted to drugs, drinks, matrimony, etc, RIGHT ? ' varying adrenaline rushes to " meaningfully " experiencing a  panoply of emotional rushes for people who normally have them generally repressed. ' I find it too difficult to grasp what point Dave B wants to make and how this statement is relevant to the issue being debated in this thread. ' Saying what a meaningful life isn’t is one thing but where is the positive programme? 'I'd like Dave B to elaborate on what he means by ' the positive programme ' , and how it relates to the main point of this debate, namely, whether people indulging in the luxury of and lacking in the willpower they need in order to get rid of their addiction to drugs, drinks, smoking, matrimony, and similar silly stuff deserve to be recognised as communist.

    #126070
    ALB
    Keymaster

    Well actually, there is this that Dave B came across:

    Quote:
    Humanity, if it wants to be civilised through and through, must make the Principle of healthy and meaningful living its LIFE PRINCIPLE and get rid of all institutions and culture that fail to harmonise with the Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living. https://hubpages.com/politics/the-RIGHT-VIEW-of-CIVILISATION

    t seems to be putting the cart before the horse, i.e taking the idealist position of setting out a set of principles and then saying that society should conform to them.It is also unclear whether these principles are to be applied under capitalism as well as being the supposed basis of future socialist/communist (the same thing) society. Most of things it regards as a sin (eg.bribery, gambling, trafficking, etc) won't arise in socialism as money and the money economy will have disappeared and, also, with the end of the coercive state and the economic dependence of women on men, so will "matrimony" as the state-endorsed living together of a man and a woman. All that will be left are smoking and drinking. So, what's all the fuss about — just a cigarette and a glass of beer. What's wrong with that?

    #126071
    Prakash RP
    Participant

     ' As we are in that kind of transcendental vein? There is a topical version from our Christian friend Chris Hedges? At least it puts forward a positive programme in case there is some confusion as to what one may look like. At least it is less navel gazing and ego centric. Why do you want the rest of us to have meaningful lives anyway?    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/46890.htm ' [ comment by Dave B on 19/04/2017 ] The expressions ' transcendental vein ', ' navel gazing [sic ] ', ' ego centric [ sic ] ' , etc make me wonder whether it's clear to the commenter what his point is. It's really amazing, and amusing too, to see that someone can go to this great lengths to invent sophistries meant to defend what really and truly happens to be indefensible, as I view it. 

    #126072
    Dave B
    Participant

    Well there are very, very old ideas that what ones needs to do is to live a ‘meaningful life’ is  by modifying or analysing ones own personal behaviour outlook or philosophy etc. In that restricted sense it is to start with egocentric as in what is good for me. [Egocentricity also seems to have it place in the SPGB theory in that communism is only good because it is good for me. A position I don’t totally agree with.]  There are more of them than one can shake a stick at; so there is platonic vice and virtue thing and Seneca like Stoicism etc. Positions that aren’t all that far from your own. As well as stuff from Epicurus and Diogenes type cynicism etc. And then there is even the perhaps trans cultural and trans historical asceticism of the ‘Judaic’ communist, albeit misogynistic, Essenes. But at least superficially it falls into behavioural egocentric ‘self-help’ category; eg just because I have just read it, Ruby Waxes book ‘Frazzled’ which runs with  Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. These things have admittedly a certain proselytizing aspect to them. But like what is the point in that exactly? Are they just trying, in expending energy and time, to be altruistically helpful to others; which is fair enough. Or are the married drinkers and smokers getting in the way of your own preferred way of life? In the same way as for some of us that ubiquitous bourgeois consciousness amongst the masses is getting in the way of our preferred communism. This has a history of course. The early communists wanted to clear out and set up there own communes Eg the Cabet people as well as the Shaker communists. [You would think you would be interested in them as they didn’t believe in matrimony, or sex for that matter either.] I suppose for us we want to have meaningful lives by proselytizing a communist consciousness with its own ‘principles’ but would think that your ‘principles’ are just either the paraphernalia of bourgeois consciousness, or irrelevant to communism. If I could believe that by stopping smoking, drinking and taking drugs and living a more ascetic life style etc communism would come along as night follows day etc I would be all for it. But I don’t. Although I do appreciate that ‘meaningless’ consumerism and drug induced escapism oils the wheels of the present system, and wouldn’t want to trivialise attempts to avoid it. There is a massive legal pharmacology, get them hooked when young even when still in the womb , opiate based and ‘neural toxin’ anti depressant, Prozac, pill popping Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder in the US. RT News have been running documentaries on it.     Opposing getting pissed, or not eating pork, as a principle and ‘thing in itself’, for example, out of any kind of context is ‘transcendental’.   We have all made arseholes out of ourselves when drunk and some things that would have been best left undone etc. But we have also meaningfully enjoyed ourselves as we wouldn’t have done sober? As to Chris Hedges and Christianity etc for which I am guilty of provoking your response. There are two positions. The Calvinistic and Capitalist one. Believing in a set of ‘meaningful’ principles or faith as it is described is sufficient to buy your egocentric way into a alcohol and matrimony free heaven. The other is the more Hedge’s like and communistic? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed", but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.— James 2:15-18

    #126073
    Bijou Drains
    Participant
    Dave B wrote:
    There is a massive legal pharmacology, get them hooked when young even when still in the womb , opiate based and ‘neural toxin’ anti depressant, Prozac, pill popping Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder in the US.

    I think to attempt to catagorise Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder/Attention Deficit Disorder as an invention of the American pharmaceutical industry, is naive. ADD/ADHD is as real and as potentially impactful as conditions such as autism, Asperger's Syndrome or Schizoprenia.

    #126074
    rodmanlewis
    Participant
    Tim Kilgallon wrote:
    I think to attempt to catagorise Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder/Attention Deficit Disorder as an invention of the American pharmaceutical industry, is naive. ADD/ADHD is as real and as potentially impactful as conditions such as autism, Asperger's Syndrome or Schizoprenia.

    These conditions are to some extent exaggerated because of the nature of class society, where the sufferers react to a hostile world in the only way they know how–by withdrawing from it. Non-sufferers make their lives more bearable by turning to drugs.

    #126075
    Bijou Drains
    Participant
    rodmanlewis wrote:
    Tim Kilgallon wrote:
    I think to attempt to catagorise Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder/Attention Deficit Disorder as an invention of the American pharmaceutical industry, is naive. ADD/ADHD is as real and as potentially impactful as conditions such as autism, Asperger's Syndrome or Schizoprenia.

    These conditions are to some extent exaggerated because of the nature of class society, where the sufferers react to a hostile world in the only way they know how–by withdrawing from it. Non-sufferers make their lives more bearable by turning to drugs.

    I think the idea that people with ADD/ADHD withdraw from society is laughable.

    #126076
    Dave B
    Participant

    I don’t dispute that the explosion of mental health problems in the western world is real and that people are suffering from being unable to cope, ‘adjust’ or ‘function properly’ in our society etc. I also accept that some of these drugs and therapies can supply short term relief. I am not interested in just kicking people crutches away like booze. What I suspect in an Erich Fromm Sane Society thesis is that they are not actually ill but responding in a human way to an inhumane environment.

    #126077
    Prakash RP
    Participant

     ' Well actually, there is this that Dave B came across: Quote:Humanity, if it wants to be civilised through and through, must make the Principle of healthy and meaningful living its LIFE PRINCIPLEand get rid of all institutions and culture that fail to harmonise with the Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living. https://hubpages.com/politics/the-RIGHT-VIEW-of-CIVILISATIONt seems to be putting the cart before the horse, i.e taking the idealist position of setting out a set of principles and then saying that society should conform to them. It is also unclear whether these principles are to be applied under capitalism as well as being the supposed basis of future socialist/communist (the same thing) society. Most of things it regards as a sin (eg.bribery, gambling, trafficking, etc) won't arise in socialism as money and the money economy will have disappeared and, also, with the end of the coercive state and the economic dependence of women on men, so will "matrimony" as the state-endorsed living together of a man and a woman. All that will be left are smoking and drinking. So, what's all the fuss about — just a cigarette and a glass of beer. What's wrong with that? ' [ comment by ALB on 27/04/2017 ]    ' t seems to be putting the cart before the horse, i.e taking the idealist position of setting out a set of principles and then saying that society should conform to them. ' You want to aim to achieve your aim after having achieved it ?! My dear friend, the sane aim to achieve their aim AFTER, not before, having fixed on their aim. Playing in a FIXED game is something outright UNBECOMING to true communists, RIGHT ? ' It is also unclear whether these principles are to be applied under capitalism as well as being the supposed basis of future socialist/communist (the same thing) society. Most of things it regards as a sin (eg.bribery, gambling, trafficking, etc) won't arise in socialism as money and the money economy will have disappeared and, also, with the end of the coercive state and the economic dependence of women on men, so will "matrimony" as the state-endorsed living together of a man and a woman. '  The Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living is meant for the good of humanity, for the transformation of today's humanity into a better humanity, regardless of times it belongs to because it's meant to awaken humanity, and it happens to be the first to do this, to what I view as an eternal truth, namely, the idea that it makes sense, and becomes humanity as well, to live a healthy and meaningful life. It aims at awakening humanity to the fact that capitalism, capitalist cultures and lifestyle, economic inequality, the origin of the GREATEST and gravest social INJUSTICE, etc, etc do NOT fit in with it and the fact that it's communism, and communism alone, that can create a just and free society with an environment that harmonises with the  Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living. The  Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living also aims at awakening humanity to the brute fact that it still happens to be way too uncivilised and enlightens it about the dos and don'ts it must adhere to if it wants to be civilised through and through. Thus, the significance of the Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living in the capitalist era which we all belong to now is undeniable. And you don't seem to mean to deny this undeniable fact. You're skeptic of its usefulness in the communist era. But, sir, as we do NOT belong to the communist era, and as the organisation of the revolutionary transformation of the present-day world into the communist world order happens to be the immediate MISSION before all the communists of today, I think the most sensible thing to do right now would be to spare ourselves the debate over this point. We can leave it to be dealt with by the  humanity who'd belong to the communist era, can't we ? The point over which we started debate is NOT the significance of the  Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living but the question of whether all those that are so pitiably insignificant as to be bereft of the calibre they need to rid themselves of their nasty addiction to drugs, drinks, smoking, matrimony, etc, i.e. all the stuff that happens NOT to have the Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living's seal of approval, deserve to be reckoned communist. I think we'd best restrict ourselves to this point.  ' …  just a cigarette and a glass of beer. What's wrong with that? '                                                                         You seem to have agreed to leave the luxury of matrimony off the list of the stuff NOT in disharmony with  the communist ethics and outlook. It's a welcome development. There's NO doubt about it. And as you've succeeded in conquering the allure of silly matrimony as well as travesties of matrimony, there's NO good reason you should NOT be successful at getting rid of your addiction to indulgences such as ' just a cigarette and a glass of beer. ' I endorse looking on ' a cigarette and a glass of beer ' as '  just a cigarette and a glass of beer ' and would like you to give up them right now. My dear friend, you should NOT fail, if you're a true communist, to overcome your unhealthy addictions. If you'd allow me to give you a piece of advice, I'd ask you to say to yourself that communism is a GREAT ideology, and that communists are GREAT people endowed with good sense, strong backbone, and invincible willpower and thus persuade yourself that if you're a true communist, you must prove stronger than the allure of and addiction to all unhealthy indulgences. 

    #126078
    Bijou Drains
    Participant
    Prakash RP wrote:
     ' Well actually, there is this that Dave B came across: Quote:Humanity, if it wants to be civilised through and through, must make the Principle of healthy and meaningful living its LIFE PRINCIPLEand get rid of all institutions and culture that fail to harmonise with the Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living. https://hubpages.com/politics/the-RIGHT-VIEW-of-CIVILISATIONt seems to be putting the cart before the horse, i.e taking the idealist position of setting out a set of principles and then saying that society should conform to them. It is also unclear whether these principles are to be applied under capitalism as well as being the supposed basis of future socialist/communist (the same thing) society. Most of things it regards as a sin (eg.bribery, gambling, trafficking, etc) won't arise in socialism as money and the money economy will have disappeared and, also, with the end of the coercive state and the economic dependence of women on men, so will "matrimony" as the state-endorsed living together of a man and a woman. All that will be left are smoking and drinking. So, what's all the fuss about — just a cigarette and a glass of beer. What's wrong with that? ' [ comment by ALB on 27/04/2017 ]    ' t seems to be putting the cart before the horse, i.e taking the idealist position of setting out a set of principles and then saying that society should conform to them. ' You want to aim to achieve your aim after having achieved it ?! My dear friend, the sane aim to achieve their aim AFTER, not before, having fixed on their aim. Playing in a FIXED game is something outright UNBECOMING to true communists, RIGHT ? ' It is also unclear whether these principles are to be applied under capitalism as well as being the supposed basis of future socialist/communist (the same thing) society. Most of things it regards as a sin (eg.bribery, gambling, trafficking, etc) won't arise in socialism as money and the money economy will have disappeared and, also, with the end of the coercive state and the economic dependence of women on men, so will "matrimony" as the state-endorsed living together of a man and a woman. '  The Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living is meant for the good of humanity, for the transformation of today's humanity into a better humanity, regardless of times it belongs to because it's meant to awaken humanity, and it happens to be the first to do this, to what I view as an eternal truth, namely, the idea that it makes sense, and becomes humanity as well, to live a healthy and meaningful life. It aims at awakening humanity to the fact that capitalism, capitalist cultures and lifestyle, economic inequality, the origin of the GREATEST and gravest social INJUSTICE, etc, etc do NOT fit in with it and the fact that it's communism, and communism alone, that can create a just and free society with an environment that harmonises with the  Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living. The  Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living also aims at awakening humanity to the brute fact that it still happens to be way too uncivilised and enlightens it about the dos and don'ts it must adhere to if it wants to be civilised through and through. Thus, the significance of the Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living in the capitalist era which we all belong to now is undeniable. And you don't seem to mean to deny this undeniable fact. You're skeptic of its usefulness in the communist era. But, sir, as we do NOT belong to the communist era, and as the organisation of the revolutionary transformation of the present-day world into the communist world order happens to be the immediate MISSION before all the communists of today, I think the most sensible thing to do right now would be to spare ourselves the debate over this point. We can leave it to be dealt with by the  humanity who'd belong to the communist era, can't we ? The point over which we started debate is NOT the significance of the  Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living but the question of whether all those that are so pitiably insignificant as to be bereft of the calibre they need to rid themselves of their nasty addiction to drugs, drinks, smoking, matrimony, etc, i.e. all the stuff that happens NOT to have the Principle of Healthy and Meaningful Living's seal of approval, deserve to be reckoned communist. I think we'd best restrict ourselves to this point.  ' …  just a cigarette and a glass of beer. What's wrong with that? '                                                                         You seem to have agreed to leave the luxury of matrimony off the list of the stuff NOT in disharmony with  the communist ethics and outlook. It's a welcome development. There's NO doubt about it. And as you've succeeded in conquering the allure of silly matrimony as well as travesties of matrimony, there's NO good reason you should NOT be successful at getting rid of your addiction to indulgences such as ' just a cigarette and a glass of beer. ' I endorse looking on ' a cigarette and a glass of beer ' as '  just a cigarette and a glass of beer ' and would like you to give up them right now. My dear friend, you should NOT fail, if you're a true communist, to overcome your unhealthy addictions. If you'd allow me to give you a piece of advice, I'd ask you to say to yourself that communism is a GREAT ideology, and that communists are GREAT people endowed with good sense, strong backbone, and invincible willpower and thus persuade yourself that if you're a true communist, you must prove stronger than the allure of and addiction to all unhealthy indulgences. 

    Yeah, thanks for the advice mate, but frankly you seem a bit of a bore and I think I'll stick to the pork pies and beer.You might want to try it, judging from your posts you seem to be a bit stressed and anxious. Take my advice, have your self a nice, long, cool beer, maybe a cigar and a brandy to folow, sit back and relax. Who knows you might stop passing outdated, sanctimonious, moralistic judgements on others . Go on, you know it makes sense, who knows, you might even make a friend or two in the process.By the way, to all the comrades having a drink at lunch time during conference today, I will raise a glass to you.Piss artists of the world unite, you have nothing to lose but your self esteem.

    #126079
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    Quote:
    By the way, to all the comrades having a drink at lunch time during conference today, I will raise a glass to you.

    Me too, also, as well, and all. With superstrong coffee. ( in  a glass looks like Guinness)

    #126080
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Stop SHOUTING at people.

    #126081
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    Quote:
    communism is a GREAT ideology, and that communists are GREAT p/

    Quote:
    Stop SHOUTING at people. You can emphasise if you wish, but SHOUTING is most unhelpful, anti-social and diminishes any substance there might be in your contributions.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_caps
    #126082
    rodmanlewis
    Participant
    Tim Kilgallon wrote:
     I think the idea that people with ADD/ADHD withdraw from society is laughable.

    They do withdraw in the sense that they create their own little universes around themselves, making their personal agenda the only thing that matters.

    #126083
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I will probably regret saying this but this is what you get when you bring 'morality' 'justice' and yes 'ethics' into the case for socialism.  All imply their opposites 'immorality', 'injustice' and 'unethical'. It becomes a 'sin' to break these 'rules' or 'commandments'  and allows the holy to preach to the unholy.I could bring lots of quotes from Marx and his friend but I have already posted them on numerous ocassions.The case for socialism is based on the material interests of the working class and not idealist notions of 'justice', 'morality' or some 'ethical' system.  We are social animals and we do not need religion or ethics to force us to work together. 

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