The ‘Occupy’ movement

[Anonymous]

DJP wrote:

…In short I think the rule should be: PARTICIPATE, but do so without illusions.

Hmm, not at all sure about that; sounds too much like the SWP tactic of  “VOTE Labour, but without illusions…………..”    

[stuartw2112]

I don’t see what’s patronising about compassion, and it’s precisly the “illusions” we are discussing. They don’t seem like illusions to me. What the last century (or certainly the past few decades) has shown is the extreme danger that lies in wait for those who abandon the pursuit of reform and progress.

[Anonymous]

‘In short, it’s the classic reform versus revolution argument again…’It is notDoes this mean that as a member of the Socialist Party I have to ridicule my wife’s attempt to have her disability living allowance and invalidity benefit restored because she has been thrown into severe poverty. The day to day struggle of working people continues. My message is fight for what you can get from the parasites AND join the SPGB for world revolution. The Socialist Party of Great Britain, therefore, enters the field of political action determined to wage war against all other political parties, whether alleged labour or avowedly capitalist,  It does not say wage war against working class organisationsThe Occupy movements are not political parties and nor were the Miners in 1984. We were working people at war with the capitalist class ‘Hmm, not at all sure about that; sounds too much like the SWP tactic of  “VOTE Labour, but without illusions…………..”     ‘The SWP  and Labour Party are political parties in opposition to the SPGB.  Socialists should NEVER vote for them.

[Anonymous]

TheOldGreyWhistle wrote:

The Occupy movements are not political parties…………………

Are you quite sure about that?  They may not be political parties in the accepted sense of the word but they have a list of reformist demands longer than your arm.  Take Occupy Wall Street for example:-1. Complete bans on federal political contributions, replaced by public campaign financing.2. Reversal of the “Citizens United v. FEC” Supreme Court decision.3. Combating Washington’s “revolving door.”4. Bans on gifts to federal officials.5. Tax reform – eliminating special carve-outs and increasing progressiveness.6. Single-payer health care.7. Increased environmental regulation.8. Reduction of the national debt through a progressive income tax and elimination of corporate handouts.9. Federal job-training programs.10. Student loan debt forgiveness.11. Immigration policy, including amnesty for illegals.12. Recalling the U.S. military globally.13. Education mandates and teacher pay.14. Massive expansion of public works projects.15. Spurring China to end currency manipulation.16. Reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act.17. Refinance all underwater mortgages at 1% interest rate.18. One-year freeze on all foreclosures.19. Free air time for all political candidates who gather sufficient signatures.20. Immediate withdrawal of all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.

[DJP]

TheOldGreyWhistle wrote:

The Occupy movements are not political parties and nor were the Miners in 1984. We were working people at war with the capitalist class

I wonder how much you’ve actually participated in this Occupy stuff? The most popular currents within it (at least in the UK) seem to be for a land tax ala Henry George and monetary reform ala Postitive Money / NEF as well as some Green Party type ideas.. These are things that Socialists should be criticising and ridiculing!The trouble with the Occupy thing is that it’s so amophous for it really to represent a cohesive organisation, but where it to become one, I feel alas it would be necessary to oppose it.SOME of the actions associated with the wider occupy movement, and mostly in the US, are inspiring particularly how it worked together with various trade union / workplace activities – I’m not sure if this happened so much in the UK?Reform or revolution does not mean that we should oppose all reforms (as the other SPGB seem to think) but that we should oppose reformism, the illusion that you can get to socialism by gradually stacking reforms one on top of the other.

[DJP]

gnome wrote:

17. Refinance all underwater mortgages at 1% interest rate.

What’s an underwater mortgage? Like what you need to buy a submarine?

[Anonymous]

DJP wrote:

What’s an underwater mortgage? Like what you need to buy a submarine?

Underwater mortgages are mortgage arrangements that effectively leave the owner with more debt on the property than the current market value. Generally, an underwater mortgage situation does not arise when a buyer takes out a first mortgage. The condition tends to arise when a second or third mortgage is taken out, or if factors within the area cause the property to depreciate in value unexpectedly. Negative equity is the term generally used to describe this state of affairs in the UK.

[stuartw2112]

@Gnome: Gnome’s list of reforms is not taken from Occupy Wall Street, and no such list of demands has won wide approval (or been voted on by General Assemblies) either in Occupy Wall Street itself or more generally. You need to actually read what you Google, Gnome. Even a brief glimpse at Wikipedia would have put you on the right lines. But there you go: the only people who find what they’re looking for are the people looking for fault.

[DJP]

Does anyone know if all the occupy groups practise(d) consensus and an open membership policy? That would explain their difficulty in coming to a decision. Also as far as I know there is no mechanism for co-coordinating the various groups, so ‘Occupy’ is really just a collection of disparate and independent groups.

[Anonymous]

The main thing that has recently drawn me back to socialism is the Occupy movement. I have not fully studied them and I am sure most are not socialist but I have come accross a general consensus that it is non violent, leaderless, not in favour of any political party. seeks a world wide solution to capitalism, some advocate the abolition of money and the wages system. This talk gave me a little hope that the working class are waking up. I have spoken to a group on twitter and they say they seek the abolition of nation states, money and wages. voluntary cooperation and free access. I didn’t join them as I already knew the SPGB existed.I spend a lot of time on twitter directing groups to the SPGB for a leaderless political movement for world socialism.( But I have now been suspended). They may be searching and we need to be there. Its a pity if they look our way and receive nothing but ridicule.I know we become cynical over the years. I joined in the 70s full of hope. When I suggested to an old comrade that things are happening. He told me to stop taking drugs. We have to have hope I believe socialist consciousness dawns on us like a Gestalt shift in perception. All the information is there we just don’t see it, therefor socialist consiousness could literally happen over night

[Anonymous]

DJP  Other   SPGB!!?

[DJP]

Thanks Mr Whistle thats good to know.You’re right there must be thousands of people coming to conclusions simular to ours. That’s why I think I main activity should consist in making ourselves as easy to find as possible.Morris said “make socialists” I think this is wrong, it is capitalism that makes socialists not the feeble actions of a small minority group, therefore I think our motto should be instead “find socialists!”.

[DJP]

TheOldGreyWhistle wrote:

DJP  Other   SPGB!!?

You really have been missing out on all the fun!http://www.socialiststudies.org.uk/

[Anonymous]

DJP. Yes, I remember, I was around at the time. Darcy, Harry Young et al. I didnt think it would last. 

[alanjjohnstone]

i find the example of Iceland placing their ex-prime minister on trial for negligence rather interesting and amusing. Blaming individuals’ failures for the crises instead of recognising systemic faults as its causes.  But we can all sympathise with scape-goating particular capitalists particularly their lickspittle political representatives even if in the very unlikely situation he will be found guilty and igets a token sentence. In many ways Occupy Norwich, which seems to be mimicking  UK Uncuts,  by identifying one capitalist (Green) as a criminal and engaging in a citizen’s arrest,  reflects the same popular emotional political appeal.  But does it offer an accurate description of the workings of capitalism and does it advance the case for socialism ? The question is – should such acts be given uncritical support ? If not, then the question is how does the WSM frame its criticism. I believe and i think DJP is saying and what Old Grey desires – our disagreements should be comradely and we should not stand aside or stand aloof to the Occupy movement , being on the outside looking inside.  Whatever our opposition is,  it not based upon the Party’s hostility clause but comes from a recognition of the protests limitations, just as we with the trade union movement ie we do not discourage class struggle day-to-day resistance. The means and methods that those on particular benefits defend themselves is for their own self-organisation to decide, not for the party to intervene in. But we do caution that those in itself do not suffice, nor do we become cheer-leaders for every strike or protest as a sign that heralds the revolution. We can generalise our politics by explaining the necessity of trade unionists taking  political action but be scathing when it manifests in such expressions as TUSC. 

[Author]

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