- This topic has 355 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 2 months ago by Anonymous.
February 26, 2012 at 12:04 pm #86465Ozymandias wrote:Watched this video and it doesn’t fill me me with hope at all…just depression. I went over to Blythswood Sq in Glasgow in November to talk with the “occupiers” there. Ok they were enthusiastic but didn’t have a single iota about how capitalism operates or what the solution is. It really depressed me.
But why would you expect it to be any other way? I think there is a tendency for people to project their own wishes on to large and visible movements and then to feel disappointed when they do not act in the way they hoped. It is clear that real communism is an ultra minority view point at the present time, this is to be expected.All that these developments present us with is a platform with which we can explain and discuss our perspective with people who are BEGINNING to question the status-quo. You visited the occupy camp in Glasgow, how many times? Our argument has so many layers / premises that it takes more than one meeting to get the point across. All we can do is partake in the process, I attended many discussions at the Norwich camp and even presented a brief text on the Marxian analysis of how capitalism works. (Though most of the campers, especially near the end, did not seem to be interested in discussing, I think these things had a tendency to turn into homeless shelters / hang-outs for teenage kids)Quote:Looks as if Occupy is in disarray now anyway whilst TZM is dwindling fast. Let’s face it folks we are all doomed. This species is on it’s way out…fast!
I think you place too much emphasis and hope in big flavour of the day ‘organisations’. The ‘real movement that changes the existing order of things’ is not Occupy, TZM or even the Socialist Party; it is the proletariat as a whole. All we can do is participate in the process – we have no ther choice.February 28, 2012 at 8:49 am #86466ALBKeymaster
It’s all over then. At least they had the sense to go peacefully and not try to battle with the police.February 28, 2012 at 11:11 am #86467BrianParticipant
Hopefully the occupy movement will mature into condemning the capitalist system rather than merely complaining.March 1, 2012 at 3:30 pm #86468
DJP: “But why would you expect it to be any other way? I think there is a tendency for people to project their own wishes on to large and visible movements and then to feel disappointed when they do not act in the way they hoped.”Absolutely right.And in reply to ALB, the Occupy the London Stock Exchange camp is over. The Occupy movement as a whole, here too but especially in the States, is as lively as ever: so lively it’s impossible to keep up with everything that’s going on.March 1, 2012 at 4:43 pm #86469ALBKeymasterstuartw2112 wrote:And in reply to ALB, the Occupy the London Stock Exchange camp is over. The Occupy movement as a whole, here too but especially in the States, is as lively as ever: so lively it’s impossible to keep up with everything that’s going on.
That the camp at St Paul’s is over is all I meant. Of course the Occupiers are still around and still discussing. Good.I agree with you about the US. It is difficult to follow what’s going on. There, some have gone reformist, such as these but they have been repudiated by others. Some groups have been taken over by re-elect Obama people or by vanguardists. It’s all very confusing but, hopefully, there are some who are still seeking a way out of capitalism.March 2, 2012 at 10:56 pm #86470AnonymousInactiveMarch 5, 2012 at 10:37 am #86471
Ha ha ha, thanks for sharing that Gnome! Just goes to show how *hilariously* ill-informed some people are. I suppose the guy who made the image relies for his information on the lamestream media.http://www.alternet.org/story/153548/10_winning_moments_for_the_99_in_2011March 11, 2012 at 6:18 pm #86472
Meanwhile it seems Occupy Norwich has evolved into the militant wing of the inland revenueOccupy Norwich wrote:Dear Friends and Activists alike,At 1 o’clock on Saturday 24th March there will be a rally outside Topshop/man to raise awareness of tax havens and the damage they do to our economy. We will be highlighting Philip Greens Tax negligence as an example of what thousands of other companies are getting away with every year. Tax dodging is standard practice for many multinationals and it’s perfectly legal. In fact 98 of the FTSE 100 companies use tax havens to minimise their taxes. But when companies exploit international loopholes in these ways, we end up paying the price. Figures produced for PCS by the Tax Justice Network show that £25 billion is lost annually in tax avoidance and a further £70 billion in tax evasion by large companies and wealthy individuals. This money could be used to help relieve some of the strain that the relentless government spending cuts are putting on the whole country, but instead it is pocketed by a handful of ultra-rich individuals. Philip Green is one of these individuals. Green is CEO of ‘The Arcadia Group’ which includes Topshop and Topman, BHS, Burton, Dorothy Perkins, Evans, Miss Selfridge, Outfit, and Wallis. Although through this he has a personal income of around £1.2bn a year, the entire group is in his wife’s name. As she is a resident of Monaco (a tax haven) they enjoy a 0% income tax rate on this enormous sum. As a result of this, Green legally avoids paying a UK tax of approximately £285m. This is equivalent to 9000 NHS nurses annual salaries or 32,000 annual student fees that he is hoarding for himself rather than giving back to the people who buy his products and the country he lives in.This is just one example of what hundreds of companies are getting away with, but there is a solution. Taxation must be changed to a system that demands more transparency from these large multinationals so that it is clear how much money they are making, and in which countries this money is being made. These figures could then be taxed according to the laws of the individual countries where the profits were made. This would lead to a fairer business world and less abuse of developing nations. I’m sure you agree that Tax havens are a blinding statement of todays culture of corrupt capitalism. A clear disregard is shown for the welfare and quality of life of many in exchange for extreme wealth for a few individuals. I will see you on Hay HillFrom Occupy Norwich Direct ActionMarch 12, 2012 at 11:11 am #86473AnonymousInactive
Why does the party continue to spend its time ridiculing and attacking any group that becomes disgruntled with capitalism, thus turning us into the enemy of anyone who shouts in the wilderness. Surely this is counter productive and uninviting?March 12, 2012 at 11:46 am #86474
The party will have to continue ‘ridiculing and attacking’ counterproductive and mis-informed IDEAS so long as they obscure the case for socialism. Mere ‘disgruntlement with capitalism’ is not enough. It is pointless coseying up to any group that stands for anything less than the abolition of capitalism and its replacement with socialism.Myself and other party members have and continue to discuss with people from Occupy and other groups, this is all we should be doing. If people are unable to listen to their ideas being criticised then there’s no hope for us, but I think they can. What I think is more harmful is declaring the eminent downfall of capitalism at the outbreak of every strike or birth of a popular grouping. Surely this distracts from the long slog that is needed and leads to disillusionment and withdrawal.March 12, 2012 at 12:06 pm #86475
I’m not a party member and have no opinion on what the party should do or not do. I can’t see, though, what is counter-productive or misinformed about Occupy Norwich’s action. Seems to me that they are part of an effort (a global effort, more successful in some places than others, depending on the level and militancy of such efforts) to impose the losses (inevitable devaluation) of the crisis more on the ruling class than on the working class. Good luck to them.March 12, 2012 at 12:22 pm #86476stuartw2112 wrote:Seems to me that they are part of an effort (a global effort, more successful in some places than others, depending on the level and militancy of such efforts) to impose the losses (inevitable devaluation) of the crisis more on the ruling class than on the working class. Good luck to them.
The point is if this is the ONLY thing they end up doing then they are wasting their time. Another crisis will come along and they’ll have to do it all over again. Further more, despite their aparant militancy, all they are doing is pandering to the state to make a petty change in its taxation laws. If they where to succeed, they will not have changed the underlying situation one jot. But when considering WHY this is the case it could be likely that some of them will end up at socialist type conclusion.So, all that can be done is to carry on a dialogue explaining that the only way to ultimately resolve the situation is to change the fundamental conditions that underlie it.In short, it’s the classic reform versus revolution argument again…March 12, 2012 at 12:42 pm #86477
If the movement succeeds in (to use just a few examples of ongoing and partially successful efforts) forcing Greek bondholders rather than state social spending to take the brunt of losses, or preventing the British government forcing the unemployed into unpaid work and privatising and slashing NHS spending, or preventing the banning of collective bargaining rights in America, and so and so on, then I can’t see that time has been wasted. To return to the original point, would it be a good thing (ie, not a waste of time) if these protestors succeeded in reducing tax avoidance among corporations and rich individuals, and hence (if forced) reducing the impact of social spending cuts? How can any socialist, or indeed anyone with compassion for the poorest people in our country, or the vaguest awareness of self-interest as workers, answer no?March 12, 2012 at 1:02 pm #86478
Stuart, I don’t need to patronise the poorest people in ‘our’ country (I thought workers had no country though) with my compassion, I am one of them and I have an ABSOLUTE awareness of where my interest as a member of the working lies, in the abolition of capitalism and its replacement with socialism RIGHT NOW.Of course workers should resist attacks on their conditions, we have no choice but unless we want to get caught up in an endless struggle we have to move beyond this. If the last century is to show us anything is that not the futility of following reformist illusions? Reformism is a barrier that the revolutionary movement will have to overcome.March 12, 2012 at 1:07 pm #86479
…In short I think the rule should be: PARTICIPATE, but do so without illusions.
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