Socialism not Communism
- This topic has 69 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 1 hour, 31 minutes ago by
.
-
Posts
-
It was published as a pamphlet by Progress Publisher and China Publications, and it was sold by China Books and Periodicals in several languages. It was published in Albania too during the time of Enver Hoxha, and a review was made in Albania today. The pamphlet should have been a wake-up call, and Lenin on state capitalism should have been a wake-up call too
I’m quite aware you people are part of a cult, no different from the opposite of Farage who ropes in the gullible. But Farage said and the SPGB said … So it must be true?
Marx said there must initially be a “Dictatorship of the proletariat.” Sound reasoning in an age of absolute poverty where the have nots outnumbered the haves. Fast forward to the 21st century and how do you persuade the majority of haves to give up what they own to the minority have nots without another dictatorship?
After reading a couple, I don’t read the SPGB writings any more, I already know they’re going to spin history from a Marxist perspective and I can read what they say here as you’re repeating them. The world according to the SPGB? I’m not about to spend the next few weeks writing a series of five thousand word essays on the points you, or rather the SPGB, are making. I ask questions, simple ones that you can’t answer and that tells me there’s not much independent thought going on here and that you need the SPGB as much as they need you.
Just looking at the news and how quickly the ‘Free Palestine’ protests fizzled out and the cost of living and anti cut-back ones arrived. A bit like mentally ill Greta and Stop the Oil lot, it comes in waves.
Germany gets its turn this weekend with France’s ‘Yellow Vests.’ Come on, you love a bit of anarchy, don’t you. 🙂 Your lot will be there waving red and black flags with their green hair, hoodies and nose rings. Having said that, some of it I agree with; stop the war-mongers financing the Ukraine conflict and down with the EU liberal fascist elites, but I think there will be a distinct lack of those shouting everything must be free.
When you watch the protests, the dozens of agenda’s on show, the violence, the looting, the burning … Those are the people who would be running your society, the only thing missing is Robespierre.
“Marx said there must initially be a “Dictatorship of the proletariat.” Sound reasoning in an age of absolute poverty where the have nots outnumbered the haves. Fast forward to the 21st century and how do you persuade the majority of haves to give up what they own to the minority have nots without another dictatorship?”
We don´t actually advocate a “dictatorship of the proletariat”. It just shows how woefully ignorant you are of what the SPGB stands for. There might have been some justification for the idea back in the 19th century, but not today, as this article spells out
As for your point about us having to persuade the majority of haves to “give up what they own to the minority have-nots without another dictatorship”, this is so ludicrous it just makes my mind boggle that you can come up with this sort of stuff.
Anyways….
1) It’s not up to us to “persuade” the working class to embrace socialism. We are not a leadership-based organisation asking workers to follow us. It’s up to you, Grandpa, and millions of others like you, to do something about it if you want to change society. We can’t do it for you
2) The differentiation between “haves” and “have-nots” has to do with the ownership of the means of production — capital. Contrary to what you claim, capital ownership in a country like the UK is EXTREMELY CONCENTRATED and has become even more so in recent decades. See this
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth
3) The daftest part of your above comment is the claim that “the majority of haves will give up what they own to the minority have-nots”. This clearly shows you have no understanding of what socialism or common ownership means. Common ownership means EVERYBODY gets to own the means of production — not just the few, as is the case today. And by “everybody” is meant ALSO the ex-capitalist class.
Ironically, while you have been busily slagging off the SPGB as a cult, you yourself show all the signs of a cultish mindset. Your refusal to answer the very reasonable points made in response to your various outlandish claims shows you are not willing to be guided by reason, only by what your emotional attachment to certain political dogmas lets you think.
Pity, because I thought initially you might be a lot more open-minded and amenable to constructive debate than you actually are…
Dictatorship during the time of Marx meant Government ( it did not mean repression), and the expression was taken from the Roman legal system, and the dictatorship of the proletariat was only expressed by Marx in a letter to one of his collaborators; it was never part of his major works,
Marx never paid too much attention to the conception, as well the labour vouchers were taken from the utopian socialists, and the SPGB never supported that conception
You are repeating the same nonsense that you read on Wikipedia, published by the echoes of the capitalist class; the expression was used in the XIX century just in case that the working class of Europe decided as a minority class to take power, but it would have led to state capitalism, as well as the Manifesto ( or the German Manifesto) contained reformist and state capitalist clauses
After the Commune of Paris, Marx wrote that the working class, as a majority, was able to take power through the electoral process, and that is mentioned in our pamphlet titled What is wrong with parliament?
We have to mention Marx in our writing because we are a ‘Marxist’ party; we are not a liberal or a capitalist party to base our principles on Adam Smith or Locke.
You are the one living behind because it was only a measure applicable to the XIX century in case that the working class, as a minority, decided to overthrow capitalism; the new conception is that the socialist revolution must be a revolution of the majority. You are getting involved in topics that you do not have any knowledge of; you should bring your notebook to take classes.
It was Lenin, in his three parts and three components pamphlets, who wrote that the heart of Marxism was the dictatorship of the proletariat; he was wrong; the heart of Marxian theory is the labour theory, and the materialist conception of history. Lenin did not move further than the communist manifesto; he was stuck in the 19th century, and he did not mention Marx newer works, including his anthropological works
The discussion on the First International with Bakunin was not mainly about the DOP; it was about the conspiracy theory versus the political participation of the working class. Bakunin was a Blanquist and a proto-Leninist
You are basing your thoughts on bourgeois thinkers; you can defend capitalism without defending its thinkers. Theory does not fall from the sky. The Socialist Party has never supported the DOP, and actually it is not needed anymore with the world’s development of capitalism.
Inflation is not produced by protest; it is produced by the overissuance of inconvertible currency. Inflation is a monetary issue, and you must read Das Kapital to understand that.
The increase in the price of a raw material does not produce inflation; price increases are controlled by the market system, and the market is the king in this society.
The USA is the largest exporter of oil, and the price of gasoline and diesel is pretty high; therefore, shortage is not the cause of high prices.
You are just repeating the parts that are shown by the capitalist press of a minority group of protestors, but they never mention the heart of the problem, which is capitalism; people are protesting due to austerity measures, war expenses, and elimination of social programs, police brutality, and repression; the capitalist press does not mention that
You can read the capitalist press, but you can not read the socialist press; it does show your political preferences.
Inflation and price: this is part one of four articles about inflation and prices; even bourgeois economists do not understand the causes of inflation
“Dictatorship is based directly upon force and unrestricted by any laws. The revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat is rule won and maintained by the use of violence by the proletariat against the bourgeoisie.” (Collected Works, Vol. 28, p.236). I think that sums it up?
1. “It’s not up to us to “persuade” the working class to embrace socialism.” Then why do you stand people for elections? Why do you have a newspaper? What is that if not trying to persuade people?
2. Wealth is extremely concentrated, not just in Britain but everywhere in the world. That’s a by-product of capitalism. Remove it and another lot will become the capitalists, but this time they’ll call themselves the People’s Distribution Committee, or something similar. It’s human nature.
3. The argument that the majority of haves will give up what they have to the have nots is the core of why your society will never happen. What you have do is persuade the haves to share everything they’ve got, which the have nots will be very happy about and that isn’t going to happen.
I’m not slagging off the SPGB. I’m explaining why it’s pie in the sky. The SPGB doesn’t have a personality cult as so many do, but it does have an ‘only we are right’ attitude, lacking practicalities and resembling a doomsday sect type of organisation waiting for something that will never happen.
Your problem is you’re back to front. You start with theory as a conclusion and then try to make the pieces fit. What you don’t explain is the practicalities. Who is the distributor, who solves disagreements, how do you make people want to work, how do you persuade people to give up what they already own? What’s in it for them? How are you going to reconcile the other groups who also think they’re right? You can’t explain anything above theory, you just believe.
It’s not me that’s the odd one out, it’s the tens of millions that aren’t voting for a theory that makes you the odd one’s out. You have a membership of around 300. It’s simply an embarrassing fact to say The Monster Raving Loony Party has more believers than you do.
I prefer a rather more neutral warts and all view of what the SPGB is and it’s history.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.