Scottish Referendum

[alanjjohnstone]

Gnome, i cannot accept the founders of the SPGB  determined its title from an atlas or history book (unless you can provide the necessary transcript of the debate) and it is not "fairly certain" as you claim (unless again you ahve some sort of record of it.)This argument on geography, which i often use myself, is an a posteriori argument to counter the "anti-imperialist and nationalist" leftists criticisms of the Party. In 1904 such a situation didn't relly exist the SLP's full consititutional title was SLP of GB, as was the CPGB.  I think the original name was a political decision to conform with the political boundaries of the then Great Britain state, not its geographic features, hence the dismissal of the alternative suggestion "Great Britain and Ireland" which itself was making some sort of implied political statement on Irish independence.But you are right, it does pre-date the 1707 union, i believe James the 6th (the 1st of England) used the term with the union of the crowns. Although now we have a disagreement on what is Little Britain…Ireland or Brittany? Geography is always  political…"Continental Europe"…Is it not now called Euro-Asia by some geographers and the term Europe having more political assumptions.But this is all a digression.As ALB said the party branches in Scotland may well opt for another name for the party for electoral purposes if independence comes and that decision will not be based upon geography but on political implications. The Irish example is appropriate, "dual-party membership", more in name than in reality until the Scottish membership numbers swell and deserves perhaps a re-organisation and restructuring. World Socialist Party (Scotland) would be my preference. However, i simpy cannot accept that at some time in the future, the creation of a fully integrated World Socialist Movement where the various national parties form merely component parts will not encourage the rest of the party dropping of the GB and adoption of the WSP. But just to add a bit of stirring up……if independence comes, does the party resolution about not sending cash abroad require amending Will it raise our own version of the Tam Dalyell  West Lothian question in regards to party votes on policies applying either to solely England and Wales or Scotland

[alanjjohnstone]

This is what i have been waitig for…what do the bookies sayhttp://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2014/sep/09/scottish-independence-bookies-yes-campaign-indyref-no

[LBird]

ALB wrote:

This word derives from a Greek word, Πρεττανικη (Prettanike) or Βρεττανίαι (Brettaniai), used by Pytheas, an explorer from Massalia who visited the British Islands around 320 BCE.

The nearest word I can find to ‘Βρεττανίαι’ is the verb ‘βρέχω’, meaning to ‘wet’, 'drench' or ‘soak’.Perhaps Pytheas meant 'the land of the wet people', 'the soaked people' or 'the islands of the drenched'.Clearly, the weather didn't improve with the changes in the mode of production.

[alanjjohnstone]

The promise of the oil that even the SNP are not promising

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Britain missed out on a £74 billion windfall in oil revenues in just six years, from 2002 till 2008, compared to Norway's fiscal regime. An independent Scotland could choose not to concede to the corporate lobby, and replicate the Norwegian ownership and tax model.Some £74 billion over six years is a vast amount of money. Instead of boosting corporate profits, it could provide Scotland with 10 new mega-hospitals like the South Glasgow Hospital and 1,000 new GP clinics, with 10,000 new doctors and 20,000 new nurses to staff them. It could also fund a renewable energy project in every community, a community centre in every village and a solar panel on every home, to enable a decentralised and democratically-owned energy system. Or even a high-speed rail between Edinburgh and Glasgow, 10 new railway lines in Scotland and free local bus services. Or perhaps even free state childcare for pre-schoolers, a return to grants for higher education students and a citizens' income for all Scottish residents of £5,200 per year.This list sounds almost fantastical, yet these calculations are based on overestimates and leaves a 20 percent contingency. It seems unimaginable because our imagination has been effectively colonised by neoliberal power. We forget what is possible when public resources are used for public benefit.

 http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/09/scottish-independence-an-energy–20149953957684597.html

[Anonymous]

ALB wrote:

 At least this means that a revived socialist party in Ireland would not have to call itself the Socialist Party of Little Britain.

Lolhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lt5tW8a7ac

[Anonymous]

Perhap the party should commission a survey to find out the effect the inclusion of 'Great Britain' has on the perceptions of the party?Personally I think it's like asking catholics if they know who the pope is, but the survey would settle it The Socialist Party of Great Britain will be put to the right of EDL and UKIP.  edit: are there any members with social/market research experience or training? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survey_research

[Anonymous]

I don't know if this has already been dealt with but will Independence mean a permanent Tory government for the rest of UK?    

[SocialistPunk]

A good point Vin. I had thought that a vote for independence would damage Tory chances at the poll, but I saw a bit of the Daily Politics today and they were crunching some numbers on the parties and an independent Scotland would lose the Labour party a lot of seats. The result could be as you point out, in favour of the Tories for the rest of the country.While I have no support for Labour, there is something even more loathsome about the Tories. I know it makes no logical sense coming from someone who can see through the lies and bullshit from all political parties who support capitalism, but there is something I can't quite shake off when it comes to them in particular.

[ALB]

Vin Maratty wrote:

Perhap the party should commission a survey to find out the effect the inclusion of 'Great Britain' has on the perceptions of the party?

We had this discussion in the 1980s and the solution that emerged:1. The retain the full name of "The Socialist Party of Great Britain" for legal anf international contexts.2. To call ourselves "The Socialist Party" for propaganda purposes (meetings, elections, adverts).3. To use "World Socialist Movement" more.To try to unravel this by changing (1) will just stir up introversy.  And be unnecessary as the "Great Britishers" have already lost the argument as well as the vote. What could be done would be apply (2) and (3) more strictly and more consistently. In most contexts members should already not be referring to us as "The Socialisr Party of Great Britain".

[Socialist Party Head Office]

Email received at Head Office and further evidence that our stickers are being noticed:

Quote:

Dear SPGB, as a member of the Scottish Socialist Party (which is not racist)
and pro independence for Scotland, I was disappointed to find a sticker from
your organisation in my street urging people to use the vote as a protest for
world socialism. This referendum is much misunderstood, especially south of
the border, and is a vital opportunity for Scotland to free itself from a
Tory Government that no one in Scotland votes for. It could set an example of
what can be done against a racist government that is prejudiced against the
most vulnerable in society, involves itself in illegal wars, and has an
outdated idea of Britishness. Independence is not about 'borders' in the
negative sense but about 'boundaries' in the positive sense, in the way a
person needs good boundaries to thrive and to have thriving relationships
with others. Scotland has always traditionally been more Socialist than
England and indeed welcomes and campaigns hard for the rights of Asylum
seekers living here. Our largest number of incomers however, are English,
many of whom are also voting Yes. Independence for Scotland will allow the
growth of smaller parties again without the dominance of the English Tory
vote, most importantly the Scottish Socialist Party which has growing support
in Scotland and has formed strong links with Socialists in other countries
including Cuba. Many previously disillusioned voters in Scotland are voting
for the first time as they see the referendum as providing a once in a
lifetime opportunity for self determination and real change. Please call a
halt to encouraging voters in Scotland to waste it. I urge you to put this
email up on your website to educate people as to why Independence for
Scotland is a vital step for the Socialist cause and for World Socialism. I
look forward to hearing from you.
 in solidariy, Frances CorrP.S. Apologies for omitting an important point in my last email on Scottish Independence: as a campaigner for the rights of asylum seekers to stay in the country and not be deported back to countries where their lives and wellbeing are at risk, the problem we are faced with in Scotland is that Westminster has control over this issue. We have no legal power over the UK Border Agency who carry out dawn raids on families, including children who are part of our community, taking them by force to detention centres in England to await deportation. In an Independant Scotland this could not happen. Please make sure this information is passed on to your supporters.

[alanjjohnstone]

Considering the very limited activity of the party in the referendum, the impact of so few stickers, reflects the value of such a method to convey our message.Perhaps we should produce several different forms of stickers for comrades to begin sticking up nationwide…Would it be the campaigns committee responsibility…or publications…? The SSP supporter again makes the assumption that post-independence policy is is not changeable and will always be the current SNP platform. She also ignores the fact that the newly independent Scotland is a part of Fortress Europe and therefore a participant in refugee blockades by Frontex. 

[ALB]

I was almost (well, almost almost) convinced of the case for voting No on "economistic" grounds — that a breakaway state would disrupt ordinary people's lives and risk making them worse off — when the No campaign decided to play the British card, revealing that it was a contest between Scottish and British nationalism as we'd said it was all along.  I still think workers in Scotland would be mugs to vote Yes. though. Salmon is coming across more and more as a nasty little nationalist of the populist kind. I have to confess that I am looking forward to seeing the look on his face when he loses.

[Anonymous]

I see some of the financial section of the capitalist class are getting nervous at the prospect of a 'Yes' vote. The Royal Bank of Scotland has confirmed it will relocate its registered headquarters to London if Scotland votes for independence next week.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29151798Japan's biggest bank Nomura said sterling could plunge by 15 per cent if Scots vote for independence.

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The drop in value could then cause a run on UK assets which would threaten the savings and pensions of millions of ordinary British families.

And, it is claimed, asset managers, investors and pension savers are moving billions of pounds out of Scotland amid rising concerns about the financial consequences of a 'Yes' vote.

[alanjjohnstone]

Quote:

I am looking forward to seeing the look on his face when he loses.

I can't say i am looking forward to the smug expressions of Cameron or Miliband if the No vote prevails. But as a horse-racing gambler Salmond will be accustomed to putting on a brave face when he loses so i think you will be disappointed. I think it will be defiance…"now deliver those promises you kept making"…which i doubt will really materialise and will be drasticlly watered down.I have a different attitude from yourself…Salmond is quite good at put downs for those so-called neutral reporters of the BBC.There was campaign picture from the Yes campaign that tried to present them as internationalists…YES in umpteen languages, representing the migrant part of Scotland…so i am not sure that your characterisation of him as a nasty little nationalist is quite accurate compared with the proven xenophobic nastiness of Cameron and the aspiring nasty nationalism of Miliband's Labour.

[alanjjohnstone]

I think there is now a concerted attempt by the British Establishment to create a sense of fear. The Treasury illegally leaked the RSB information to the media.But this Guardian report offers another version of the financial consequences for investorshttp://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/sep/11/aberdeen-asset-management-boss-backs-independent-scotland

Quote:

An independent Scotland would be a big success, according to the head of the country's largest asset manager. Martin Gilbert, chief executive of Aberdeen Asset Management, said Scotland could prosper regardless of the outcome of the referendum next week…Sir Angus Grossart, chairman of Noble Grossart merchant bank, who suggested in the Financial Times that the impact of the referendum on the markets had been "severely overstated"

As Adam said, it's an intra-capitalist dispute. In most of my blog posts i have avoided the temptation to argue upon either the pro- or anti- reformist benefits case, the economistic debate, but kept concentrating on the working class unity and solidarity issue. 

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