November 13, 2022 at 4:08 am #236115
“Intermittent skirmishing is not war.”
But your whole case was that since 2014 Ukraine was at war with the separatists and you cite the artillery shelling.
In 1985, the Chinese fired about one million shells targeted at Vietnamese border regions…in the period from 1986 to early 1987, with only several tens of thousands of rounds fired per month… During the five-year period from 1984 to 1989, the Chinese had fired over 2 million artillery rounds.
Vietnam acknowledged 4,000 killed and 9,000 wounded in the area between 1984 and 1989.
The Chinese confirmed their corresponding casualty figure as 4,100, including over 2,000 war dead.
Sounds very much like war to me
November 13, 2022 at 4:22 am #236118
- This reply was modified 10 months, 3 weeks ago by alanjjohnstone.
“Neither countries were or are imperialist so I reject the framing of your question.”
Saying something does not make it so.
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is most probable it is a duck.
But you are often suffer from self-contradictions such as that there are two types of Nazis, bad Nazis and good Nazis
A bad Nazi is one that is pro-Ukrainian. A good Nazi is one that is pro-Russian.November 13, 2022 at 4:30 am #236120
“A bad Nazi is one that is pro-Ukrainian. A good Nazi is one that is pro-Russian.”
Don’t put words in my mouth All-in with the CIA.November 13, 2022 at 4:46 am #236121AnonymousInactive
The worst thing that ever happened to socialism was the existence of the Soviet Union, with them socialism did not advance one day, it was retarded for more than 75 years. It should not have existed counter a revolutionary known as Leninism, Bolshevism and the Soviet UnionNovember 13, 2022 at 5:38 am #236125AnonymousInactive
“A bad Nazi is one that is pro-Ukrainian. A good Nazi is one that is pro-Russian.”
Don’t put words in my mouth All-in with the CIA.
This fallacy reminds me the Castroists and the Cuban government who invested great deal of time preaching against the CIA and the Yankis imperialism, and then they became lapdogs of the soviet imperialists, and agents of the KBG and they created a similar body known as the G2, the soviet kept the same mono crop and they purchased the sugar for a cheaper price than the USA. The Maoists used to call them a colony of the Soviet Union and agents of the KGB, published it on Peking Review and broadcasted thru Peking Radio. They can fool the foolsNovember 13, 2022 at 6:49 am #236128
“But your whole case was that since 2014 Ukraine was at war with the separatists and you cite the artillery shelling.”
That’s never been my “case”. The conflict in the east included numerous pitched battles. Russia’s intervention was provoked by an imminent invasion of the Donbass by 150,000 Ukrainian troops.November 13, 2022 at 7:26 am #236130robbo203Participant
“Robotomy, you know calling me a Stalinist isn’t insulting, right? It’s a badge of honor.”
For you, it is no doubt but its good that you have come out into the open and revealed the intellectual basis of your obnoxious authoritarian outlook
“– it is about gaining “huge swathes of territory and the resources and populations therein”.”
Correlation is not causation. If the Russian speaking population inhabited barren, worthless desert the result would be the same.
Your idealist (non-Marxist) approach to understanding history is painfully obvious here. I guess you actually do believe that wars have nothing to do with the competitive struggle for markets, resources, trade routes, and so forth. In your mind, they are all about noble ideals – “freedom” “democracy” and so forth. You are just as naive and gullible as the supporters of the Ukrainian regime who assert that the war against Russia is a struggle against tyranny etc. Whether the “Russian speaking population inhabited barren, worthless desert the result would be the same” is something for which, as per usual, you provide zero evidence. It suits your style of “argument by assertion”. Like your daft claim that imperialist Russia is “decisively winning the war” having just lost Kherson and other parts of Ukraine
“So all that talk about wanting to “de-nazify” Ukraine was a load of bollocks.”
It’s never only been about de-nazification. It’s also about demilitarization, ending Kiev’s vicious slaughter of the people of Donbas and security agreements guaranteeing no NATOstani (US) infrastructure on Russia’s border.
We have already covered the question of de-Nazification. Ukraine is no more a Nazi state than Russia is – unless you want to render the term Nazi meaningless – though both are clearly repugnant authoritarian capitalist regimes. Naturally as a supporter of one of these you see no problem with the notion that Russia as a capitalist nation-state should be able to protect its “national security” – the nation-state itself being a capitalist construct. This is why you find it so hard to understand let alone appreciate the socialist opposition to war and to both sides in this conflict. Your whole outlook is thoroughly rooted in a capitalist ideology
“Putin is not an autocrat, he’s elected. If he was unpopular he’d be voted out of office. The Russian people don’t do so because he enjoys huge popular support. Under his leadership the looting of Russia was halted and its sovereignty restored.”
LOL TS . You live on another planet. So the muzzling of opposition parties and the press, the suppression of protests etc etc is not clear proof that we talking about an autocratic regime, is it?. BTW Being autocratic does not necessarily mean being unpopular. The de facto monarch of capitalist North Korea Kim Jong-un is an autocrat by any standard but is no doubt “popular” ‘ meaning if you don’t display your craven support for him things could happen to you – and your family
“Mr Putin is the best recruiting sergeant for the cause of the small Ukrainian Nazi movement they could ever have hoped for.”
That’s perfectly OK. As a result more Nazis will die. It’s a win-win.
So your answer to the nazi problem is to become like a nazi yourself. Kill anyone who holds an opinion you disagree withNovember 13, 2022 at 7:33 am #236131
“The worst thing that ever happened to socialism was the existence of the Soviet Union”
Lol, says the socialist poser who does nothing to advance the cause but spew nonsense on the internet all day.November 13, 2022 at 7:37 am #236132
Robotomy you are talking in circles now. A running dog chasing its flea-bitten tail. I’ve addressed every one of your claims a half dozen times. (Yawn.)November 13, 2022 at 7:38 am #236133
Oh, you mean the 150,000 phantom combat-ready army that was poised to invade the separatist republics that had miraculously vanished on February 24th when the Russians made their advance.
And the Russians didn’t seem to be too concerned by such a huge concentration of Ukrainian troops since its main thrust was from Belarus.
But I am no tactician so there might be a good military reason that this 150,000 army was not confronted from the Republics or why it was not re-deployed by Ukraine to defend Mariupol.
But apologies if I misunderstood your “case” to be that the secessionist war had been an on-going one since 2014 via artillery barrages against the separatists that the OSCE monitored regularly. After all, from an earlier message by you, sporadic skirmishes doesn’t meet your definition of war, does it?November 13, 2022 at 10:11 am #236134
“Oh, you mean the 150,000 phantom combat-ready army”
Lol, I guess if the Guardian doesn’t see a tree fall in the woods it makes no sound!
I don’t know, maybe the army that your very own source of news the Donbass Whatever was reporting on. The army
Ukraine said it was raising using Minsk as a smokescreen to take back Donbass and Crimea as multiple Kiev politicians had declared. An army that had been violating the ceasefire agreement incessantly as reported by the OSCE. All-in with the Guardian is also a flea-bitten running dog chasing forever his mangey tail.
“that was poised to invade the separatist republics that had miraculously vanished on February 24th when the Russians made their advance.”
Lol, the Ukrainians are still dug in across Donbass.
“And the Russians didn’t seem to be too concerned by such a huge concentration of Ukrainian troops since its main thrust was from Belarus.”
Except that wasn’t the main thrust. Russia attacked from multiple directions.
“But I am no tactician so there might be a good military reason that this 150,000 army was not confronted from the Republics or why it was not re-deployed by Ukraine to defend Mariupol.”
The Russians attacked on multiple fronts. The Ukrainians started the conflict with about 300,000 troops to Russia’s 150,000.
“But apologies if I misunderstood your “case” to be that the secessionist war had been an on-going one since 2014 via artillery barrages against the separatists that the OSCE monitored regularly. After all, from an earlier message by you, sporadic skirmishes doesn’t meet your definition of war, does it?”
The war reached a stalemate quite quickly then became a frozen conflict under Minsk. The Ukrainians used the agreement as a smokescreen to rebuild their shattered army. With everything in place they had their invasion ready for the beginning of March this year. The preliminary artillery barrages had already begun. At that point Russia intervened. As with Robotomy, I have explained this to you numerous times. I will not do so again.November 13, 2022 at 11:42 am #236135Thomas_MoreParticipant
Presumably the Vietnamese were also Nazis? No? Ah, REVISIONISTS and SOVIET SOCIAL IMPERIALISTS (whatever that means)!
So not only when a government is Nazi must its people be killed, but also when a govt is Revisionist or “Social Imperialist”!
Pol Pot must have gratified you.November 13, 2022 at 12:02 pm #236136Bijou DrainsParticipant
Alan, trying to attempt to argue with True Narcissist will always be like trying to mail jelly to the ceiling.
TN- “Neither countries were or are imperialist so I reject the framing of your question.”
The whole nature and presentation of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is based on denial of intrapersonal reality.
TN cannot accept the possibility of anything he says or asserts being incorrect, because if he does accept that he is not all powerful and all correct the whole intrapersonal edifice of his personality schema, in effect his whole ego system collapses.
Therefore, any fact, statistic or information, which contradicts his world is simply denied. ((Denial is the strongest “ego defence mechanism” available)
People with NPD often associate themselves with organisations and collectives that project power.
This reinforces their belief system which is built on their self perception of their own “specialness”.
In most cases the narcissists, often elaborately and ostentatiously demonstrate their “specialness” by showing to all that they support or are part of organisations that appear to be successful and through this the narcissist feels ego support for their internal view of their own high status and “specialness”
A manifestation of this might be by letting everyone know they support a highly successful sports team (I have come across individuals with NPD that have changed the sports team they support to a more successful team and then deny that they ever supported the original team!)
For True Narcissist, he has clearly associated himself with the Chinese Communist Party and other associated movements (Stalinism, Pol Pot, Putin, etc.). The inconsistency between the positions he supports (for example the Sino Soviet dispute) will be papered over by the usual Denial defence mechanism. (It didn’t happen, it is a CIA plot, the person who pointed out the fact is “smooth brained”, etc.)
The fact that the military machine that TN has hitched his wagon to (Putin’s Army) is turning out to be less powerful than predicted, will also also be denied and furthermore he will conjure up in his imagination an even more dreadful and all consuming demonstration of the powerfulness of his ally, Putin’s army (and by association himself) and in his fantasy world, all will tremble at the feet of Putin (i.e. his fantasy self)
The presentation of people with NDP is sometimes described as “Wizard of Oz Syndrome”. In the story the Wizard presents as being the all powerful and terrible ruler of the Kingdom of Oz, however in reality the “wizard” is a frightened little man hiding behind his screen of tricks and loud microphone.
The link below is quite an interesting exposition of the syndrome
Of course TN will respond by denial, dismissal of the existence of NPD (“it’s all psychobabble”), vicious attacks on anyone who has identified him as having NPD, denial of that person’s expertise, name calling, etc. (we have already experienced these traits). In a sense this reinforces the diagnosis.
Interestingly, when diagnosing a person as having NPD one of the first thing that is done is to explain to the person what NPD is and what the characteristics are.
As we all have at least a small number of these traits, a person who has not got NPD will recognise some of the traits and acknowledge these traits, whilst also recognising the areas where they don’t fit in with the diagnostic criteria.
The person with NPD will flatly deny having any of the identified personality traits, dismiss and challenge the concept of NPD and call the whole process a waste of time, whilst reiterating the “special” nature of their personality.
The genesis of NPD is often early ego trauma and negligent or neglectful parenting, or conversely being parented in a highly indulgent way, never challenging the child over their behaviour or opinions.
So in a long winded way, I am saying that attempting to try undertake rational discussion with TN is pissing into the wind.
We do need to challenge the irrational nonsense he puts out, but we will not get any further.
On the plus side, if TN is spending his time churning up his usual self inflated rubbish, at least his family and friends (if he’s got any) are probably getting a well deserved break, so in that sense we are undertaking a socially useful activity.November 13, 2022 at 1:30 pm #236140
I bow to your deeper insight into people’s personalities.November 13, 2022 at 2:11 pm #236141DJPParticipant
I think this podcast on “teenage tankies” might be of interest here:
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