November 4, 2022 at 3:39 am #235616AnonymousInactive
In Russia they introduce more anti gays law . It sounds like the USA Republicans senatorsNovember 4, 2022 at 4:22 am #235617TrueScotsmanBlocked
“TS- The war started on February 24th”
No, it started in 2014. Russia intervened in 2022.
“For a timeline that is relevant, why not review this very thread which began on November 15 2021”
Because your source is primarily the Guardian. Am I right? But we need to go back further than that. To February 2021 when Kiev first provoked Russia by threatening Donbass. It was in response to the February provocation that Russia built up its troop levels opposite.
“with reports of the Russian troop build-ups? Your claim of the Ukrainian build-up could well be in response to the Russian one.”
Nope. See above. You have the order of events in reverse. The Ukrainians built up troops on the borders of Donbass prompting the Russian response.
“The Ukraine Crisis Recedes – But A False Narrative Of It Leads To Bad Conclusions Aprill 22, 2021.
Since February the Ukraine built up a force to retake the renegade Donbas region in east-Ukraine by military force.”
Maybe the Guardian writers were taking time off those few months?
“In fact, why not check out the Euromaidan
Euromaidan – 2013 Ukraine protests”
The fascist led, CIA funded color revolution? What about it?
“But I thought I look at Donbass Insider, a separatist website, to see what was in the news.
Nothing at all reported by the website at the time of a Ukrainian build-up of 125,000 troops. It did report preparations for a possible offensive – a full year previously.”
Rubbish. The site was reporting on Ukrainian invasion preparations in Jan 2022.
The Russian foreign ministry reported the 125,000 figure. Of course, The Guardian didn’t because that would have messed up the narrative.
The people of Donbass were evacuating civilians because of the Ukrainian buildup. Even the staunchly pro-Washington Al Jazeera had to admit as much.
“I also checked with the OSCE monitoring mission website
An increase in ceasefire violations, but no mention of any special Ukrainian troop build-up.”
An increase? Try a massive increase prepatory to an invasion. While the western corporate media remained completely silent, explosions documented by the OSCE increased from 76 on February 15th, to 316 on February 16th, to 654 on February 17th, and to 1,413 on February 18th.
“And the vast majority of restrictions placed on the OSCE observers came from the separatists, not the Ukrainians, which would have been expected if they were preparing for an offensive as you claim.”
The vast majority of the shells were falling on Donbass which is all you need to know.
“I suggest your own 125,000 figure stems from RT reporting”
It comes from Russia, yes. Because the western press are complicit in the war. Lol
“Having said all this, once more I have to repeat the overall SPGB position that the Russian invasion was provoked and Ukrainian intransigence encouraged by Western interests.”
On that we are in agreement.
November 4, 2022 at 6:37 am #235621AnonymousInactive
- This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by TrueScotsman.
RT( Russia Today ) replaced the old mouthpiece of the soviet capitalist class known as Moscow Radio, RT used to be a monthly magazine published in several languages by Progress Publisher, Moscow Radio was the ideological competition of The Voice of the Americas, each one defended its own capitalist class.
They had another competition known as Peking Radio, Peking Review, and Tirana Radio and Albania Today, each defending their own interests and spreading distortions and lies
They were, and they are all the same including Washington Post, New York Time, RT, Pravda, BBC, and the Guardian each one represents the interests of the capitalist class. Lenin himself wrote in What is to be done? That there is not impartiality in the social struggles and they created Iskra.
Each capitalist class wants to present to the workers that their world is the best world for them, and that is what they do, it does not make any difference if the news come from the USA/Western powers or from Russia.
We have our news magazine known as the Socialist Standard and we are not inclined toward any capitalist class, and we do not get involve in any inter capitalist dispute and we do not ask the workers of the world to bleed blood for their own masters.
There was not and there is not any difference between a KGB agent or a defender of Putin and a CIA agent defender of the USA capitalist classNovember 4, 2022 at 7:25 am #235625
Your Carnegie link is from April 2021.
I had already said, “It did report preparations for a possible offensive – a full year previously.”
I was discussing the immediate period before the invasion.
I qualified my message with the statement
“Your claim of the Ukrainian build-up could well be in response to the Russian one.”
You cannot deny Russian build-up because Russia readily admitted large-scale military exercises on Ukraine’s borders.
If we wish to question accurate reporting. from Donbas Insider 11/2/22
“Russia’s imaginary invasion of Ukraine”
From your own source.
“If Moscow intervened in the Donbass, the military actions would take place hundreds of kilometres from Kiev.” Weeks later Russian forces were at the outskirts of Kiev.
It continues, “if the hysteria surrounding the imaginary Russian invasion of Ukraine is not based on anything concrete, fears of provocations or even an attempted offensive by the Ukrainian army in the Donbass seem justified”
Was the Russian invasion threat all imaginary?
Your linked article ends “It is to be hoped that the meeting of the Normandy Format Heads of State Advisors, which will finally take place in Paris on 26 January 2022, will bring Ukraine to its senses.”
Talks were held and planned to continue. Guess what ended them? Russia’s invasion which goes against your own narrative that Russia exhausted all efforts for a peaceful settlement.
As you appear to respect the integrity of the Carnegie website, did you read other articles from it?
You say the vast amount of shells were falling on the separatist positions…yet the reported CIVILIAN casualties were very light. Again it confirms no genocidal intentions.
Why not directly check the daily detailed OSCE reports that are available on the internet. Here is one for the 22/2/22
While I concede facts are confused by the fog of war and propaganda, from your posts, you place 100% certainty on the integrity of Russia’s reporting. I trust neither side.
As for the evacuation of civilians by the separatists, I appreciate the concern for the dangers and risk of collateral damage when war breaks out. I note Russia exercises the same in regard to its defence of Kherson by evacuating its civilians.
More than a million of the pre-2022 refugees, mainly from Donbas had gone to Russia between 2014 and 2016.
Since the invasion according to the Russian government figures, 971,417 refugees had gone to Russia by 26 May
Amnesty International reported that Russia’s refugee process known as ‘filtration’ is a violation of international law. Its research shows that many displaced Ukrainians end up inside Russia or Russia-occupied territories involuntarily.
Deportation and forcible transfer of civilians in occupied territory are prohibited by international humanitarian law and can constitute war crimes or crimes against humanity. Deportation of protected peoples such as civilians during war is prohibited by Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Human Rights Watch specialist Tanya Lokshina emphasized this point and called Russia to stop this practice.
Human rights experts consider the forcible transfer of Ukrainian children for “adoption” in Russia as a genocidal act. The Russian Duma has drafted a law which would formalize the “adoption” of Ukrainian orphaned children.
Finally, the SPGB fully acknowledges the hypocrisy of Ukraine and its Western allies in ascribing culpability to only one side of the conflict.November 4, 2022 at 7:39 am #235626
Confirming the previous debunking by the media IAEA inspectors report no preparations for a radioactive dirty bomb.November 4, 2022 at 7:51 am #235627
“You wouldn’t recognise socialism were it to tear off one of your arms and beat you over the head with it. You denounce all the socialism and socialists who’ve ever actually taken power. It’s why no one takes you seriously.”
LOL TS You haven’t got a clue what socialism is about, have you, and you have the gall to lecture us on what socialism means. In the Marxist tradition, socialism is a synonym for communism – a moneyless wageless stateless non market society in which we voluntarily give according to our ability and freely take according to our needs. What you call “socialism” is simply state-run capitalism with all the structural features pertaining to capitalism. Of course, we denounce it.
We are socialists after all! You clearly are not.
“Lol. And capitalist states are just going to spontaneously disappear are they? It’s views like these that tell the world you’re not serious people.”
LOL yourself. Idiotic claims like the above demonstrate you clearly have zero understanding of the socialist case. No, we don’t expect capitalist states to just “spontaneously disappear”. Jeez, Spare me this utter drivel….
“No, they were not. Russia tried for eight years to avoid this war. It didn’t want it. It wanted the Minsk Accords 1 and 2 to be respected and worked tirelessly for them to be so. But the Nazis in Ukraine and their handlers in Washington had different ideas. And with that, Robbo’s narrative about Russian imperialism goes up in smoke. Pfft.”
How on earth do you come to such a dumb conclusion, eh, TS? Let us say for the moment the Putin regime’s motivation was what you claim it was – to get the Ukrainian regime in good faith to comply with the Minsk accords. Even so and despite this, it still embarked on a military invasion of Ukraine, evidently with the intention of capturing Kiev and installing a puppet regime. That’s the actions of imperialist power however you want to dress it up. You might want to say Russian imperialism was driven by good intentions but that does not make any the less the act of an imperialist power.
Of course, useful idiots like yourself take the Putin regime’s propaganda at a face value and loyally regurgitate it on demand. The regime couldn’t care a toss about the plight of Russian speakers in Ukraine. That is only the pretext for its imperialist invasion, not the reason. This is a capitalist war of economic resources and spheres of influence, not lofty ideals. The Ukrainian regime is no different. I find it remarkable that you are defending one of these disgusting authoritarian capitalist regimes against the other when their modus operandi is uncannily similar. They are both corrupt and anti-democratic to their rotten core. If the Ukrainian regime is a nazi regime by your standards then so too is the Russian regime. That doesn’t stop you from tirelessly simping for it. How pathetic can you get TS?
November 4, 2022 at 8:08 am #235630
- This reply was modified 1 year, 3 months ago by robbo203.
Margarita Simonyan, the head of Russia Today (RT) and long-time Vladimir Putin ally, said on Sunday for Russians it is better to go fight in Ukraine and possibly die rather than live in a western-dominated world.
‘One day I will be prohibited to put dresses on my daughters and to explain to my son that he is a boy. This is already happening in many countries. For me, it’s unbearable. For me, this is worse than war. Indeed, it’s worse than war.’
LOL LOL LOLNovember 4, 2022 at 8:37 am #235631AnonymousInactive
She should become a member or a journalist for the QAnon movement, and the christian ultra nationalist movement . She does not sound any different to the journalists of Fox News who are supporters of Donald Trump and the MAGA movementNovember 4, 2022 at 8:53 am #235632
She should become a member or a journalist for the QAnon movement, and the christian ultra nationalist movement . She does not sound any different to the journalists of Fox News who are supporters of Donald Trump and the MAGA movement
Yeah and I bet Margarita Simonyan – like the capitalist, Putin – has a luxurious home or two somewhere stuffed to the ceiling with western luxuries. And talking of Putin, apparently he is or was a part of a Russian consortium owning one of the most luxurious villas in Spain – near Marbella – as well as owning a number of other Spanish properties…November 4, 2022 at 9:00 am #235633November 4, 2022 at 9:12 am #235635ALBKeymaster
It looks as if it is not only God that is on both sides in this war but the Devil too:November 4, 2022 at 1:10 pm #235637pgbParticipant
AJJ, you say that “Workers have no land to fight and die for”. Yet they do don’t they, as we are seeing every day in Ukraine. But its not the “land” as such that they are fighting for. It’s the common life they have made on that piece of land (it has to be made somewhere, in some physical space). The right of a people not to be invaded derives from that common life they have made and not from any legal title to property they hold or don’t hold. By common life I mean the shared experiences, the co-operative activity of many different kinds, the common culture, the things people value most including their political associations. Most people will defend their common life in the same way they they defend their homes, even those they don’t own. When a country is attacked, as Russia has attacked Ukraine, workers will naturally want to defend their common life. From what I have read and seen of the conflict, even allowing for inevitable propaganda distortion, that’s what Ukrainian workers say they are doing. I think they would find it incomprehensible if they were told that they have no land to fight and die for. No doubt you would say they had been duped by the bourgeois media or whatever.November 4, 2022 at 1:56 pm #235640Lizzie45Participant
You’re absolutely spot on of course, PGB, but you’ll have an insurmountable job convincing these blinkered ‘band of brothers’. 🙁 They know nothing about human psychology.November 4, 2022 at 2:15 pm #235642
Your argument fully applies to the Donetz and Luhansk inhabitants, that they too are right to sacrifice themselves for a life they claim to feel a special affinity with, so much so that they chose to add it to what was previously a foreign nation.
Of course, we are brought up to think where we were born and raised holds a special place in our hearts. We will soon be witnessing a great number of people rooting for their country’s national football team, celebrating or mourning victory or defeat, in total disregard of which team played better or produced the most entertaining style of football. And in common life such ‘loyalty’ in domestic sport becomes tribal. If we wish to be parochial, look at the very different responses between Rangers and Celtic supporters in the same city to the Queen’s death.
With migration, people are willing to adopt new regions as their homeland. Being attached to a particular land is not something we have in our DNA. We can transfer our love of our natural surroundings.
The history of many peoples meant that independence and sovereignty were not essential for the development of culture, traditions and customs.
It was the creation of nation-states in Africa, Asia, and Americas that resulted in the unique characteristics of people being dissolved and disappearing.
Why did Yiddish vanish? The creation of Israel and the imposition of the Hebrew language.
I think Benedict Anderson got it right with his imagined communities hypothesis. Nationality and ethnicity are not innate but taught and can be created anew. On this thread, I have mentioned Indonesia as an example. There are many more. Likewise artificial constructs have collapsed…Yugoslavia.
Go to our African blog and enter South Sudan into its search and discover how such a new nation simply didn’t materialise but civil wars did.
But what is tragic, is that when the Ukraine-Russian war is over, what will actually be gained? Improved living standards? A better quality of life?
We know it won’t be so because it never before has led to such change. Wage slaves, we remained, despite the colour of our passports.
I am not saying people genuinely feel a sense of belonging and patriotism but it is exactly the same as religion… opium to deaden the pain of daily drudgery.November 4, 2022 at 2:28 pm #235643Thomas_MoreParticipant
By ignoring Zelensky’s call to fight and die, the people of Ukraine would have made all this unnecessary. There would simply have been a change of leaders, from Zelensky to Putin; no bombings, no war, no displacement of people. By recognising this is a quarrel between capitalist exploiters, the workers should have just made no resistance, and their lives and communities would have carried on as before. A different colour flag would be the only difference.
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