April 2024 Forums General discussion Refugees

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    “Imagine after the initial revolution the UK, France and Spain have elected SPGB like parties, and we’re still waiting on the other states to have their revolutions.”

    I suppose something like that could happen but, if it did, the socialist movement in the other countries of Europe (and in the other capitalistically developed parts of the world) would not be far behind so there will be strong socialist movements there.

    What are you suggesting? That the socialist administration in the three countries you mention should ban the entry of Muslim refugees? Since by then the adherents of that religion would have been reduced — by defections to secularism and rationalism let alone to socialism — to a small, uninfluential minority, what would be the danger? In fact, we could expect organisations like this one to be much more influential :


    And not just in your three countries but elsewhere too.

    I must say that you must have a particularly woke council in Bath if they let people be intimidated into not putting up a xmas tree.

    Don’t worry. Socialists regard islam like all religions as superstitious and irrational nonsense to which we are implacably opposed and expose as such — but in public debate and persuasion not by banning them or discriminating against those under their influence.


    I wouldn’t ban them coming in but I’d have a bill of rights that cannot be repealed.

    If any location does try to repeal any points within the bill, either implicit or explicitly they would face criminal charges.


    ActualSocialist10: “Even if we had the overwhelming majority of the UK’s workforce behind us, for example, 75% which would be unprecedented in history (not even this many were against slavery), that still leaves 25%.”


    I am not sure that this follows. Public opinion is a spectrum. If 75% of the workforce were socialist, I would say the great bulk of the remaining 25% would not be “reactionaries” but more likely en route to becoming socialists themselves – that is, accepting some or most of the ideas and values that a socialist movement embodies.

    It is difficult to imagine that the growth of the movement would not have profound repercussions for the entire climate of opinion within society. For example, strengthening a culture of democracy. One set of ideas cannot continue to flourish (at least not to the same extent as before) in the same soil in which another set of ideas, diametrically opposed to it, has laid down roots and begun to flourish.

    Reactionary ideas will recede to the same extent that socialist ideas advance


    Even today local councils can’t adopt by-laws or regulations that go against national legislation. Local councillors are essentially elected civil servants. If they step out of line they can be sanctioned by the central government, as has happened on a number of occasions when leftwing Labour councils have tried to defy the law.

    Here’s what happened in 1972 in Clay Cross.

    Note what happened to 11 of the councillors:

    “But the 11 councillors … eventually paid a heavy price for their opposition as they were surcharged and banned from holding public office.”

    Anyway, in the context of a political situation where there is a so large a majority in favour of socialism that they have won political control it is highly unlikely that a local council anywhere would have an Islamist majority. If there was and they did try to impose Islamic values they could easily be removed.

    In fact if this situation occurred today under capitalism the same fate would befall any council and councillors who tried this.


    Okay, apologies for my previous misunderstanding, I think I fully understand what you mean now.

    It’s true, things do not happen in a vacuum and as ALB put it, even worst case scenario that could be easily removed.

    Sorry it was just I was asked about our policy regarding refugees and my response was obviously “let them in” and then the discussion just got into the nitty gritty of the cultures, current integration problems and I couldn’t think of a good response, but I am glad that has now changed, thank you guys truly!


    The cause of immigration is not climate change only , it is capitalism that is producing immigration due to unemployment, poverty, and misery and with the expansion of capitalism in a world scale the situation is getting worst

    England and EU are not the only ones getting refugees, the USA has a huge amount of peoples waiting to be authorized to enter in the country, and many of them are needed because there is a shortage of labor, and they are planning to shut down the border completely for political gains, but there are Europeans crossing from Canada to the USA

    Peoples from different countries are immigrating into another country, even more, Haiti that is the poorest country in Latin America they are emigrating to the Dominican Republic which also has high percentage of unemployment, Venezuelan are emigrating to the Dominican Republic and Chile, Puerto Rican are emigrating toward the USA, and more than half of the population have emigrated, Dominicans are emigrating toward Puerto Rico and New York,

    Chinese are crossing the US border along with Cubans, the priority created during the cold war have been eliminated, there were thousand of cubans refugees in Costa Rica and Nicaragua, and many Nicaraguans are emigrating toward the USA, they have emigrated from one poor country into another poor country

    Each government is blaming their problems in somebody else, and they are using nationalism and hates against others workers to cover the failures of capitalism, as well the USA ruling class never mentioned that all the problems caused in Central America have been in part produced by their large international corporations in collaboration with the Latin American ruling class and everything have failed, but they obtained large profits from the sweat of the working class.

    In El Salvador most male emigrated toward the USA and women stayed working in the Maquiladoras, and then they lost their jobs too when factories were move to Vietnam, in some places they had tax exemption and when they finished their period ( like in Puerto Rico ) they moved their operation to another country and that created unemployment , emigration, (and the Puerto Rican are US citizens,) and created ghosts towns, small business bankruptcies

    Immigration is a very complicated case which must be visualized from all points and from a world view, the daughter of Noam Chomsky has written a well researched book about the cause and the implication of emigration and how it became a crime after 1968,

    Several years ago some friends we did a large research about emigration and our conclusion was that the situation was going to get worst, and that emigration was going to be expanded into a world scale, and that peoples were not going to return to their countries of origin because the social and economical situation will never get better, and that capitalism was going to destroy all social, family and community value

    Capitalists, legal system, and nationalist can not resolve this crisis, only a world socialist society would be able to do that , and we are not going to liberate ourselves as muslims, christians, jews, nationalist , xenophobic, blacks, white, yellows, red, or X nationalities, we must wipe out first all those things from our minds, it must be analyzed from a socialist point of view instead of a capitalist nationalist point of view.

    Workers with advanced, or reactionaries beliefs are workers and they are exploited at the point of production and it does not make any difference if they are women, men, homosexual, leftist or right wingers, and capitalist used them to produce commodities, and capitalist ideology has influenced a lot in the minds of the workers,,

    NYC used to be populated of foreign workers influenced by Leninists, Stalinists and Maoists and they had their own organizations and that situation is gone, and now they are supporting the Democratic or the Republican Party, the situation has changed, and some that became old have left the working class movement.

    Muslim are not the only one supporting backward ideas, white europeans christians are also doing the same things, even more, in some places like Argentina and Mexico women obtained the decriminalization of abortion, and in the USA in many states abortion is illegal, and millions of women voted for right wingers and against other women, homosexual are being killed, therefore, England is not the center of the universe.

    Argentina has thousands of letwing organizations ( Leninists, Stalinists, Castroists, Guevarist, Maoists, Trotskyists, Anarchists, Let communists ) and workers voted to elect a right wingers and most of them are european descendants and catholic, and they are leaving the country due to unemployment, poverty and a high inflation


    Pro capitalist politicians using immigration/refugee crisis to obtain votes


    I thought Florida was full of Cuban refugees.


    There are predictions indicating that in the future there are going to be more Chineses crossing the USA/Mexico border than Mexican/South American/Central American. China is not the paradise propagated by the Western governments and the left-leftwingers, capitalism all over the world have failed and the xenophobic do not know the real reasons or the causes of world immigration


    Using the poor for political and election purposes

    Following orders from Trump, GOP kills immigration legislation


    “As of 21 January, 621 people had crossed the English Channel in small boats in 2024. In 2023, 29,437 people came to the UK this way. That was a big drop from the 2022 total of 45,755.”


    “More than 200,000 Ukrainians visa holders have arrived in the UK since March 2022, with the first visas to expire in March next year.”

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